1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:05,130 But, uh, a true narcissist definitely has multiple, you know, internal 2 00:00:05,130 --> 00:00:07,890 personalities and definitely is detached. 3 00:00:08,189 --> 00:00:12,240 You know, there's psychopaths and sociopaths and are, are both 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:13,870 narcissists, I mean, narcissist. 5 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:18,300 So they're, there's, it's definitely a kind of a disorder and they're not gonna 6 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:19,740 change, and they're not gonna get better. 7 00:00:54,345 --> 00:00:56,985 Today, we are speaking with Barbara Bowman. 8 00:00:57,644 --> 00:01:02,085 She is the author of What Not To Do at Funerals. 9 00:01:02,745 --> 00:01:04,845 Barbara, could you please introduce yourself? 10 00:01:04,845 --> 00:01:07,365 And let people know just a little more about you, please. 11 00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:08,940 Sure. 12 00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:12,360 Um, well, thank you very much for sharing your audience with me. 13 00:01:12,390 --> 00:01:16,500 And, uh, take some time to talk about one of my passions, which is 14 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:23,370 all these faux pas, and, um, lack of decorum, and things that have really 15 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:29,040 caused problems in people's lives and families over something as common as, 16 00:01:29,070 --> 00:01:31,410 uh, funeral, death, and, and grieving. 17 00:01:31,770 --> 00:01:35,445 Um, I have had a lot of these in my life. 18 00:01:35,445 --> 00:01:42,345 Most of my family members, my parents, uh, my siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, 19 00:01:42,345 --> 00:01:47,925 my own son, my dogs have all passed and so I've had a lot of experience with that. 20 00:01:48,345 --> 00:01:52,365 And at the same time, because I've had a lot of experience in my regular 21 00:01:52,365 --> 00:01:55,575 life where, um, I work in a med spa, 22 00:01:55,575 --> 00:02:00,435 I'm a med spa where we do like skin treatments on folks and we get kind of 23 00:02:00,435 --> 00:02:06,015 personal, um, I am an easy conduit for people to say, Hey, guess what happened at 24 00:02:06,015 --> 00:02:10,305 my funeral, or my, not my funeral, but my, the funeral of my mother or my brother. 25 00:02:10,395 --> 00:02:11,445 Could you believe this? 26 00:02:11,535 --> 00:02:12,765 I can't believe this happened. 27 00:02:13,155 --> 00:02:19,215 Um, and so over and over again, I said, I should write a book about 28 00:02:19,215 --> 00:02:21,105 this and just help people out. 29 00:02:21,435 --> 00:02:24,885 And not to make it heavy, not to make it sad, not for it to be a 30 00:02:24,885 --> 00:02:30,015 trigger for anyone, but just as, um, a simple guide to kind of, 31 00:02:32,580 --> 00:02:35,730 you know, in a lighthearted way, just answer some of those basic questions. 32 00:02:35,730 --> 00:02:38,310 So it's not gonna be awkward or weird anymore. 33 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:40,830 And if you do screw up, there's some simple ways to, 34 00:02:41,130 --> 00:02:42,850 to repair those relationships. 35 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,580 And so I thought it was important and now a passion. 36 00:02:48,030 --> 00:02:51,840 Well, death is hard to deal with for a lot of people because of that 37 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,650 emotional track that is attached to it. 38 00:02:55,770 --> 00:03:00,210 You know, it's always devastating and it happens at the wrong time. 39 00:03:00,660 --> 00:03:06,300 And, you know, when we're young it can really be grievous. 40 00:03:06,330 --> 00:03:13,500 So it's awesome to have somebody out there trying to help you through this. 41 00:03:13,679 --> 00:03:20,640 I've had several of those funerals myself and, you know, when you start burying 42 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:29,370 your brothers and, uh, all of that, it, it gets pretty traumatic at times. 43 00:03:29,549 --> 00:03:30,600 Am I next? 44 00:03:30,959 --> 00:03:32,609 You know, that's the big question. 45 00:03:32,850 --> 00:03:40,410 So what is the big takeaway from your book? 46 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:48,420 I mean, how, how is this thing written and does it walk you through each of 47 00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:51,480 the phases going through the funeral? 48 00:03:51,540 --> 00:03:53,190 Or what is the book about? 49 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:54,930 A little bit. 50 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:59,070 Um, the book's actually written kind of punchy, um, it's, there's a, there's a 51 00:03:59,070 --> 00:04:00,270 little bit of tongue and cheek in it. 52 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:07,155 Not that death or grieving at all is, is not a serious matter, but it's, in 53 00:04:07,155 --> 00:04:10,525 a large part written for people who have not been on that side of grieving. 54 00:04:11,325 --> 00:04:16,035 And grief is something that once you experience it, you're always 55 00:04:16,035 --> 00:04:17,745 going to have grief in your life. 56 00:04:18,105 --> 00:04:21,525 You could experience different levels of grief depending on the relationship 57 00:04:21,525 --> 00:04:25,215 of the person that's passed that you have, it's always gonna be different. 58 00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:26,205 I mean, it is. 59 00:04:26,535 --> 00:04:31,215 Um, people don't realize how serious it is when someone loses a 60 00:04:31,215 --> 00:04:35,535 long-term pet if you're not a pet lover, but you have to honor that. 61 00:04:36,075 --> 00:04:40,335 And if it's a very different type of grief, if you have a grandparent or 62 00:04:40,335 --> 00:04:44,265 someone who's been ill for an exceptional amount of time as opposed to someone, 63 00:04:44,265 --> 00:04:47,625 something that's happened suddenly where there was no expectation, there's 64 00:04:47,625 --> 00:04:49,925 been an accident or, or suicide, 65 00:04:50,505 --> 00:04:54,825 um, and these are all, have their own type of trauma. 66 00:04:55,275 --> 00:05:01,245 And if someone doesn't have a platform of how to kind of respond to that, 67 00:05:01,995 --> 00:05:03,794 they can really destroy relationships. 68 00:05:03,854 --> 00:05:10,245 And they can end up making what could be a very serious or supportive, um, 69 00:05:11,335 --> 00:05:14,775 ceremony and turn it to be about them. 70 00:05:15,085 --> 00:05:17,025 And that is the worst thing you can do. 71 00:05:17,735 --> 00:05:21,870 So it's, it's very direct and to the point, you know, what 72 00:05:21,870 --> 00:05:22,980 do you do when someone dies? 73 00:05:22,980 --> 00:05:25,140 What's the first thing you do when you find out someone's 74 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:28,160 passed that you know, you know? 75 00:05:28,430 --> 00:05:31,900 Um, you, you, you send a card. 76 00:05:32,310 --> 00:05:36,240 I don't care if that person's been like deceased for four or five years. 77 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,050 If you just found out and they, or someone you had a relationship with, or it meant 78 00:05:40,050 --> 00:05:45,180 something to you, um, you send that family a card because that, that person will 79 00:05:45,180 --> 00:05:47,400 live forever in their lives, you know? 80 00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:51,570 Um, some people don't wanna go to funerals because they, it makes 81 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:54,030 them queasy and so we discuss that. 82 00:05:54,390 --> 00:06:00,510 Um, basics, real basics like what not to wear, um, what to wear. 83 00:06:01,260 --> 00:06:05,700 Um, these, you know, there's been some, I have some, there's been some 84 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:11,625 really fun topics that have come up and, um, oddly enough, the, the same 85 00:06:11,625 --> 00:06:13,245 basic questions come up every time. 86 00:06:14,865 --> 00:06:19,695 So, so it's kind of interesting that, what to wear at a funeral. 87 00:06:20,025 --> 00:06:26,955 Because it, it's kind of odd, our day and time now, people may 88 00:06:26,955 --> 00:06:30,045 not necessarily think about that. 89 00:06:30,465 --> 00:06:34,035 But you don't wanna go to a funeral dressed like you're 90 00:06:34,035 --> 00:06:35,440 going to Walmart, do you? 91 00:06:37,335 --> 00:06:38,385 Oh, but people do. 92 00:06:38,385 --> 00:06:43,995 And, and it's, and it's definitely seen and it's definitely remembered. 93 00:06:44,625 --> 00:06:49,755 I have, you know, for the most part, especially since COVID, and I, I'm, 94 00:06:49,755 --> 00:06:56,375 I'm a bit older, but I think COVID, um, kind of did a number and, on folks 95 00:06:56,855 --> 00:07:01,215 kind of forgetting what some of these, some of the normalities we had around. 96 00:07:01,455 --> 00:07:04,245 What would happen when someone, when someone died, all kind of got 97 00:07:04,245 --> 00:07:05,955 blown out, out, out of the water. 98 00:07:06,225 --> 00:07:09,765 And there's a lot of people who are millennial age, maybe in their 99 00:07:09,765 --> 00:07:15,735 early thirties, um, who are just now experiencing a death in their family. 100 00:07:16,875 --> 00:07:19,695 And so to them they're thinking, Should I make a statement? 101 00:07:20,775 --> 00:07:23,295 We don't, we wear black now at a wedding. 102 00:07:23,295 --> 00:07:26,285 We didn't wear black at weddings before, why should I have to wear black? 103 00:07:26,755 --> 00:07:29,745 Um, there's a lot of these kind of strange questions. 104 00:07:29,895 --> 00:07:33,975 But you have to remember, especially in America, we have a lot of different 105 00:07:33,975 --> 00:07:36,045 religions and a lot of different beliefs. 106 00:07:36,375 --> 00:07:40,155 And it's, and other countries, they have a main religion and main ceremonies 107 00:07:40,305 --> 00:07:42,765 that people have done for decades. 108 00:07:42,765 --> 00:07:47,895 It's part of their, their national culture and we kind of don't have that anymore. 109 00:07:48,465 --> 00:07:52,545 Especially since the church population has, has dwindled so much, it's, 110 00:07:52,755 --> 00:07:54,525 it's still even more of a loss. 111 00:07:55,185 --> 00:07:57,975 And so there have been people that have wore cocktail 112 00:07:57,975 --> 00:08:00,285 dresses because it was black. 113 00:08:00,375 --> 00:08:04,485 But it was also shiny and cut down to their belly button, so not appropriate. 114 00:08:06,165 --> 00:08:09,105 There was one instance though, I will say, and I wrote about it in the 115 00:08:09,105 --> 00:08:13,455 book, there's, um, most of them tend to be serious, you wanna dress like 116 00:08:13,725 --> 00:08:18,525 you're going to a job interview or you're meeting your, um, significant 117 00:08:18,594 --> 00:08:19,995 other's parents for the first time. 118 00:08:20,205 --> 00:08:23,415 Something conservative, something respectful, um, 119 00:08:23,505 --> 00:08:24,915 doesn't always have to be darker. 120 00:08:25,575 --> 00:08:32,235 But I did have a friend who, it was a formal memorial service for her mom 121 00:08:32,235 --> 00:08:37,125 who was an avid gardener, and so the daughters all wore these bright sundresses 122 00:08:37,695 --> 00:08:41,174 and that was in respect for their mom. 123 00:08:42,075 --> 00:08:46,215 Anyone else who wore something like that was considered out of 124 00:08:46,215 --> 00:08:51,075 place and inappropriate, because it was the memorial service. 125 00:08:51,405 --> 00:08:55,035 So that was, uh, you know, when people come in and they say, Well, 126 00:08:55,035 --> 00:08:58,485 I, I knew her, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna wear something that I think 127 00:08:58,485 --> 00:09:00,105 represents the way she would dress. 128 00:09:00,225 --> 00:09:03,105 Well, it's not about how you would represent her, it's 129 00:09:03,105 --> 00:09:04,335 about supporting the family. 130 00:09:05,385 --> 00:09:07,605 So there's a lot of situations. 131 00:09:08,505 --> 00:09:13,685 And just real quick, one more, I have a, um, another where a gentleman passed 132 00:09:13,875 --> 00:09:18,125 and he worked on the, in the city, and they worked on, on the roads. 133 00:09:19,265 --> 00:09:20,835 They have what, what we would call a wake. 134 00:09:21,245 --> 00:09:26,685 A wake is usually open to the public and just anybody and everybody who wants 135 00:09:26,685 --> 00:09:31,695 to can usually attend a wake and they may go on for, for four or five hours. 136 00:09:32,085 --> 00:09:36,854 Um, and this gentleman worked with him on the job. 137 00:09:36,915 --> 00:09:40,515 He came after work in his muddy work boots, in his bright orange, you know, 138 00:09:40,515 --> 00:09:44,984 those neon orange shirts you wear when you're working on the road, and 139 00:09:45,074 --> 00:09:47,834 came in and sat next to the family. 140 00:09:48,375 --> 00:09:51,464 And this woman came into my office and she was mortified. 141 00:09:52,185 --> 00:09:58,410 She said, This guy couldn't have put a decent pair of shoes, muddied shoes 142 00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:01,290 all the way down through the funeral parlor, he couldn't have put an extra 143 00:10:01,290 --> 00:10:03,210 pair of shoes in his, in his truck? 144 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:04,470 He couldn't have gone home? 145 00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:06,870 We were there for four hours, what was wrong with this guy? 146 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,850 And that was the first thing she told me when, the week after the funeral. 147 00:10:13,380 --> 00:10:17,010 It stuck with her that that was, the guy was lazy and disrespectful. 148 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:18,600 Probably there just for the free food. 149 00:10:19,454 --> 00:10:19,694 Yeah. 150 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:25,395 You, you know, another thing, Barbara, is people need to think for 151 00:10:25,395 --> 00:10:31,095 themselves during this time and not lean in on the family necessarily. 152 00:10:31,095 --> 00:10:34,935 Because they, they have their minds full. 153 00:10:35,115 --> 00:10:36,645 So what to wear. 154 00:10:36,645 --> 00:10:41,085 You don't wanna reach out to the family and say, Hey, what should I be wearing? 155 00:10:41,324 --> 00:10:47,745 You should have that emotional intelligence, emotional support, 156 00:10:48,285 --> 00:10:50,385 you know, for the family. 157 00:10:50,445 --> 00:10:55,875 And a lot of people, they don't have that. 158 00:10:56,775 --> 00:10:57,015 Yeah. 159 00:10:57,015 --> 00:10:58,995 It's not like people don't have a television where they 160 00:10:58,995 --> 00:11:00,855 haven't seen, they don't. 161 00:11:01,035 --> 00:11:05,775 But you could always call, these, these things always take place at a location. 162 00:11:06,495 --> 00:11:10,995 Even if it's a celebration of life, which, um, could happen anywhere. 163 00:11:11,475 --> 00:11:16,545 Um, or if it's at a particular church or synagogue. 164 00:11:17,115 --> 00:11:23,145 Um, if you're not sure, you just call the, the funeral director or you call 165 00:11:23,145 --> 00:11:26,745 the, that church or that location. 166 00:11:26,835 --> 00:11:27,555 They'll know. 167 00:11:28,635 --> 00:11:30,795 They'll know what's gonna happen in the ceremony and they're gonna know 168 00:11:30,795 --> 00:11:33,195 what to wear, um, and things like that. 169 00:11:33,855 --> 00:11:36,135 There's always someone you can call, you don't have to call a family member 170 00:11:36,135 --> 00:11:37,665 and drag them down with more details. 171 00:11:38,765 --> 00:11:39,015 Yeah. 172 00:11:39,285 --> 00:11:44,115 The, this is kind of why I, I think it's critical that people understand, 173 00:11:44,115 --> 00:11:46,215 and if they don't, get your book. 174 00:11:46,665 --> 00:11:55,395 Because I, I've performed a few of these funerals myself and, you know, the 175 00:11:55,395 --> 00:11:58,305 last funeral I did was for my cousin. 176 00:11:58,905 --> 00:12:06,135 And I ended up putting him in the back of my truck and took him from Klamath 177 00:12:06,135 --> 00:12:11,775 Falls all the way over the mountain in a pickup truck instead of the hearse. 178 00:12:12,195 --> 00:12:19,064 The family, at that time, they couldn't, uh, afford the services. 179 00:12:19,064 --> 00:12:22,724 So I stepped in and said, Hey, let's do this. 180 00:12:22,724 --> 00:12:28,005 And, you know, I'll put him in my truck, that'll save you expense there. 181 00:12:28,515 --> 00:12:34,694 And it's really about supporting the family and getting it done. 182 00:12:36,210 --> 00:12:37,590 You are so right. 183 00:12:37,770 --> 00:12:39,630 And I just, lemme just give you kudos. 184 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,410 I think that was a really nice thing for you to do and it was very thoughtful 185 00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:46,079 and it took a lot of weight off of them. 186 00:12:46,079 --> 00:12:49,199 And it, and it showed how much you cared about him. 187 00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:54,540 And that you performed a, you just said, Hey, I can, I can pick up the slack here. 188 00:12:54,569 --> 00:12:56,579 I see a need, I'm gonna meet it. 189 00:12:57,329 --> 00:13:02,400 And, you know, I don't, I don't know you, but that's, that's a 190 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:07,710 level of character and kindness that is hard to find these days. 191 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,500 But that's exactly what you need to do. 192 00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:12,080 You're like, Well, I don't know what to do. 193 00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:16,290 And, you know, it's one of the hardest things that you can say to, to, to 194 00:13:16,290 --> 00:13:21,360 a family, because as you know, when someone dies, it's a ton of work. 195 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:22,170 It is. 196 00:13:22,170 --> 00:13:24,540 It's so much work, it's exhausting. 197 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:28,500 And you might get a very short amount of time to deal with all their effects, um, 198 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:33,089 you may not even know what, but you might end up having a funeral or some type of 199 00:13:33,089 --> 00:13:35,280 service before you even completely know, 200 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,339 you know, the full story around the death. 201 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,180 There's a lot of things that happen that are exhausting and there's a lot of 202 00:13:42,180 --> 00:13:48,540 PTSD that's, that happens just to make ends meet, just to make details happen. 203 00:13:48,930 --> 00:13:51,900 So if you're a neighbor or you're a friend, I would, I 204 00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:53,430 wish everyone acted like you. 205 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,050 I wish they said, You know what? 206 00:13:55,050 --> 00:13:56,430 I'm just gonna go mow their lawn. 207 00:13:56,579 --> 00:13:58,229 I'm not gonna ask them, just gonna mow their law. 208 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,600 I'm just gonna drop off some food. 209 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,760 If they don't eat it, they don't like it, they don't answer the door, I 210 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,040 don't care, just gonna drop it off. 211 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:11,130 Um, you know, if the, if it's out of, if it's a relative who dies suddenly 212 00:14:11,130 --> 00:14:17,430 or something and they have to go out of town, you know, I, one example I leave is, 213 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,020 you, if you're their friend, you should instantly become the best Uber driver in 214 00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:23,545 the world at three o'clock in the morning. 215 00:14:24,660 --> 00:14:28,560 It's, it might be a small inconvenience for you to take someone to the airport 216 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,980 so they can get across country for a funeral they didn't expect, but it 217 00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:35,160 is so much harder for them, you know? 218 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:36,439 'Cause they're not going to Disney World. 219 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,189 They're gonna go to some, they had no expectation of doing, so 220 00:14:41,310 --> 00:14:45,360 coming up and saying, just taking a minute, just taking a beat and 221 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,650 say, What might I need right now? 222 00:14:49,650 --> 00:14:51,099 And then just doing it for them. 223 00:14:52,469 --> 00:14:57,090 You know, and if you, you know, I know you have to go to your aunt's house, can I 224 00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:59,160 watch your kids for you during that time? 225 00:14:59,490 --> 00:15:00,660 I'll change my schedule. 226 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,560 You know, or I have some time can I watch your kids during that time? 227 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,860 I'd really appreciate it, an opportunity to do that. 228 00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:10,500 Just, that's an offer. 229 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:18,969 Um, and to take it one step further, I think the best, um, friend and support 230 00:15:18,969 --> 00:15:23,115 person is the one that shows up a week, two weeks, or a month later. 231 00:15:24,015 --> 00:15:27,735 That if your friend, maybe they've been through quite a few funerals, or if, 232 00:15:27,975 --> 00:15:31,815 or if it was someone who they knew was gonna pass and so, so many things had 233 00:15:31,815 --> 00:15:33,315 already been laid out and prepared, 234 00:15:33,765 --> 00:15:38,745 and you say, Hey, you know, if they say, Truly we've, we're, we've taken it 235 00:15:38,745 --> 00:15:40,965 all down, we have it all put together. 236 00:15:41,145 --> 00:15:42,375 We don't, we don't need any help. 237 00:15:42,565 --> 00:15:44,025 Well, check in a week or two later. 238 00:15:44,565 --> 00:15:48,840 show up again, show up then with a little, with some food or take 'em out. 239 00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:50,370 Say, Hey, can we do lunch? 240 00:15:50,370 --> 00:15:51,810 You don't have to talk about anything. 241 00:15:52,020 --> 00:15:56,250 I just wanna give you either some, a good time or maybe some time to just 242 00:15:56,430 --> 00:16:01,290 blow off some, some grief that you're now experiencing that you couldn't 243 00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:05,460 experience the two weeks earlier when all, every bit of energy you're using is 244 00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:09,150 to deal with the funeral and all of that. 245 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:12,720 You know, that's when a lot of the grief really happens is a 246 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,720 week or two later, or starts. 247 00:16:18,415 --> 00:16:18,725 Yeah. 248 00:16:19,845 --> 00:16:24,735 That, that is a really interesting question because everybody 249 00:16:24,735 --> 00:16:29,835 grieves differently and we process it out differently. 250 00:16:30,105 --> 00:16:35,895 And sometimes that can actually take several years, you know, if a 251 00:16:35,895 --> 00:16:38,324 wife loses a husband or whatever. 252 00:16:38,655 --> 00:16:46,035 So that support system after and the longevity of that support, 253 00:16:46,155 --> 00:16:48,314 I, I really think that matters. 254 00:16:48,314 --> 00:16:55,335 And how do we determine if the person is okay and we can stop 255 00:16:55,335 --> 00:16:57,615 supporting them in this situation? 256 00:16:58,725 --> 00:16:59,385 You don't. 257 00:17:01,005 --> 00:17:02,895 You know, um, I think 258 00:17:04,905 --> 00:17:08,790 getting, being able, being able to get back to regular life, and 259 00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:13,710 by that, it, that's your, your new normal, your new regular life, um, 260 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,379 really does depend on who passed. 261 00:17:17,930 --> 00:17:21,089 Sometimes it is, if a parent was your best friend and your 262 00:17:21,089 --> 00:17:24,660 parent, well, you've, you have two relationships you're gonna grieve. 263 00:17:25,399 --> 00:17:30,180 Um, if it was a long-term spouse, I think, and, and, and a child, 264 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:35,610 I think that there is grief that you'll always have and that's okay. 265 00:17:35,940 --> 00:17:41,639 And I think it's totally okay to be, you know, um, I have, I'm grieving a 266 00:17:41,639 --> 00:17:48,240 little bit right, today over my, you know, my son or my, my dad who died 267 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,810 five years ago, or you may always feel sad for, for a little bit. 268 00:17:52,379 --> 00:17:53,820 And you can always be supportive. 269 00:17:54,330 --> 00:17:59,850 Um, and I think the way you can do that is never be afraid to 270 00:17:59,850 --> 00:18:02,310 talk about the person that died. 271 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,400 I have a friend who really was not there for me when, uh, when my son 272 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,950 passed, and I was shocked by that. 273 00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:18,570 And when you have one of these monumentous experiences of grief and loss, um, you 274 00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:22,770 know, not just a, a work colleague, or a college, high school or college friend, 275 00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:28,440 but you know, or a neighbor, but something much more significant, you will really 276 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,770 find out who the people are in your life who are gonna be there or not there. 277 00:18:32,159 --> 00:18:35,040 It's, it does put a, a line in the sand. 278 00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:40,889 And yet this woman, um, who was very unsupportive, she 279 00:18:40,889 --> 00:18:42,060 just kind of checked out. 280 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,639 Um, she has never forgotten my son's birthday, ever. 281 00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:48,710 She continues to call. 282 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:54,600 She says, Hey, you know, and it's, so it's in her calendar. 283 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:57,900 And so, and every year she'll call me up and we'll talk for 284 00:18:57,900 --> 00:18:59,520 a few minutes about my son. 285 00:18:59,580 --> 00:19:06,210 And I think I'm always gonna grieve the, the loss of his life 286 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:08,880 that I could have had with him. 287 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,620 But knowing that there's people around who, who just maintain 288 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:18,210 the fun, wonderful parts of their relationship and their personality, ah, 289 00:19:20,610 --> 00:19:22,699 it's like a, it's the most wonderful thing in the world. 290 00:19:24,735 --> 00:19:25,155 Yeah. 291 00:19:25,574 --> 00:19:30,354 You know, my, my mother lost my oldest brother when he was sixteen. 292 00:19:30,945 --> 00:19:37,435 And I, I was just a child at the time, but I watched my mother and my father 293 00:19:37,485 --> 00:19:39,855 take that to the grave with them. 294 00:19:40,245 --> 00:19:45,045 Uh, so that grieving, it, it happens differently. 295 00:19:45,045 --> 00:19:51,405 And it does, it happens lifelong because there's an attachment there. 296 00:19:51,405 --> 00:19:58,125 Especially if it's a son or a daughter, you know, someone very close like that. 297 00:19:58,695 --> 00:20:03,765 Uh, what's the best way to help people like that? 298 00:20:04,335 --> 00:20:10,290 Uh, because, you know, we all wanna say, How can I help you? 299 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,950 But how do we help? 300 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:15,480 Yeah. 301 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:17,400 You can't. 302 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:24,889 Well, I think in some of those situations there's, there's a lot you, you can't 303 00:20:24,889 --> 00:20:27,930 do other than allow them to grieve. 304 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,975 Um, and to the, to grievers out there, I have experienced grief 305 00:20:33,975 --> 00:20:39,925 with and without grief support and very specific, um, grief counseling. 306 00:20:39,945 --> 00:20:42,075 And I can tell you it is night and day. 307 00:20:42,435 --> 00:20:48,885 If there are people and, you know, a few decades ago, grief counseling or grief 308 00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:53,355 groups was just so few and far between. 309 00:20:53,595 --> 00:20:56,325 Um, and if you had insurance, insurance wouldn't, wouldn't 310 00:20:56,325 --> 00:20:57,375 cover that sort of thing. 311 00:20:57,645 --> 00:21:02,115 But what a difference when you go through this horrible kind of 312 00:21:02,115 --> 00:21:05,805 like Jumanji world, you know, your whole world is upside down now. 313 00:21:06,435 --> 00:21:11,625 Um, nothing is, nothing is gonna be the same, no future situation's gonna be 314 00:21:11,625 --> 00:21:14,775 the same, no Christmas, no birthdays, no holidays are gonna be the same 315 00:21:14,775 --> 00:21:16,215 because, 'cause your brother's gone. 316 00:21:17,115 --> 00:21:22,095 Now if you are speaking with other people who are going through that, you'll be 317 00:21:22,095 --> 00:21:23,985 able to find some kind of normalcy. 318 00:21:23,985 --> 00:21:27,255 Like, I'm not, I'm not going crazy that I still cry over this. 319 00:21:27,495 --> 00:21:30,915 I'm not going crazy that I still feel this loss even though I have these other kids. 320 00:21:31,604 --> 00:21:37,425 I, I can't say enough about professional support, uh, in those days where 321 00:21:37,425 --> 00:21:41,834 your body just can't maybe get outta bed or get out of a chair. 322 00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:46,364 And, you know, you have a support or support person that says, Yeah, I remember 323 00:21:46,364 --> 00:21:47,925 that day, tomorrow will be different. 324 00:21:48,675 --> 00:21:56,340 Um, and I, I, and I think feeling like you can't talk about it, or feeling like you 325 00:21:56,340 --> 00:21:59,970 can't take a moment to grieve and be sad, or you have to leave the other room 'cause 326 00:21:59,970 --> 00:22:03,810 it's gonna make people uncomfortable, um, I think that's really hard. 327 00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:07,410 Um, but it is something we have to do. 328 00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:13,650 Unfortunately, those of us who, um, have had or dealing with severe 329 00:22:13,650 --> 00:22:19,020 grief have to do a little bit of counseling, whether we like it or not. 330 00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:20,730 To the people around us, 331 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:25,590 um, who have not and may never experience what we're going through, and to 332 00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:29,550 just tell them, Yeah, I'm gonna have moments where I'm just really sad. 333 00:22:30,510 --> 00:22:33,629 You know, certain songs may help me feel better. 334 00:22:33,629 --> 00:22:36,120 Certain songs may make me feel bad, but I'm always gonna 335 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:37,889 feel bad because I love 'em. 336 00:22:39,330 --> 00:22:41,219 Just tell 'em, I'm, I'm always gonna miss 'em. 337 00:22:41,399 --> 00:22:42,510 I'm always gonna love them. 338 00:22:42,810 --> 00:22:47,280 And most of the time I'm happy thinking of, thinking of them, but every 339 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,780 once in a while, I'm gonna be sad. 340 00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:52,770 You know, and I, I, I hope you're okay with that. 341 00:22:54,030 --> 00:22:56,550 You know, you're not gonna ruin everyone's dinner, you're not 342 00:22:56,550 --> 00:22:57,629 gonna ruin all of Christmas. 343 00:22:57,629 --> 00:23:00,120 But if your mom has a few moments where she's thinking about 344 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:02,550 your brother, let her have it. 345 00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:05,220 Just go, Yeah, I know he is still here. 346 00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:07,980 If you believe, that's your belief, say, You know, why would he miss 347 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:10,530 a Christmas, um, with the family? 348 00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:15,075 If you believe, you know, that there's angels or spirits or if, if you have a 349 00:23:15,075 --> 00:23:18,815 belief that they're, they have contact with us then I would believe that your 350 00:23:18,815 --> 00:23:20,625 brother is there every single time. 351 00:23:20,625 --> 00:23:22,845 'Cause it's his family and he is invested. 352 00:23:24,375 --> 00:23:24,615 Yep. 353 00:23:25,275 --> 00:23:27,000 Yep, I, I like that a lot. 354 00:23:27,540 --> 00:23:33,225 So I, I really think that you touched on something very important. 355 00:23:33,645 --> 00:23:40,965 Uh, it, it doesn't even really have to be a counselor, but a group of individuals 356 00:23:40,965 --> 00:23:45,180 that experienced a similar situation. 357 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:47,820 That's relation. 358 00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:54,450 You know, it, it's, they can relate to you a lot better than most people. 359 00:23:54,660 --> 00:24:02,670 You know, we have no clue how you feel so having that support system is vital. 360 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:09,870 And I think if my mother and my father would've found that type of support, 361 00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:17,040 it, it would've helped change the dynamics in our family long term. 362 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,180 So I, I like that you encourage that. 363 00:24:22,125 --> 00:24:24,075 And you can't get that from social media. 364 00:24:24,585 --> 00:24:24,945 Right. 365 00:24:25,635 --> 00:24:27,705 You cannot get that from social media. 366 00:24:27,885 --> 00:24:32,505 Someone might be speaking about their loss or their grief or, or what their 367 00:24:32,505 --> 00:24:35,445 steps in the grieving process were like. 368 00:24:35,445 --> 00:24:39,525 And that may resonate with you, but it also might make you feel, well, 369 00:24:39,525 --> 00:24:42,525 I'm not experiencing what they're experiencing, so what's wrong with me? 370 00:24:43,305 --> 00:24:49,575 So, you know, it has its place, but it's, you know, and I, you may, you 371 00:24:49,575 --> 00:24:53,385 can't relate to this either, but it's kind of like being pregnant. 372 00:24:53,385 --> 00:24:55,305 If you were pregnant and you were the only person around that was 373 00:24:55,305 --> 00:24:58,305 pregnant, you wouldn't have anyone to say, What does this feel like? 374 00:24:58,305 --> 00:24:58,865 How is this now? 375 00:24:58,865 --> 00:24:59,774 What to do. 376 00:25:00,225 --> 00:25:03,105 You know, this is, maybe you can't experience that. 377 00:25:03,105 --> 00:25:07,995 So, but it is, this is why there's these, these types of groups. 378 00:25:08,955 --> 00:25:15,870 The only caveat I have is that there have been some, you know, I've, I've 379 00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:21,179 been in some groups that I've gotten out of fairly quickly because you also 380 00:25:21,179 --> 00:25:26,189 don't wanna use it as a group where you, um, there's some people, I'll put it 381 00:25:26,189 --> 00:25:31,439 this way, that feel that for, at least for a time, that if they're not sad 382 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:38,340 or angry that maybe they didn't love them as much as they thought they did. 383 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:45,105 That, and being sad and being depressed, and shutting people out, and carrying 384 00:25:45,105 --> 00:25:52,155 that, you know, that intensity with them is somehow honoring that deceased. 385 00:25:52,655 --> 00:25:57,794 Um, and not, and the, the fear that if you let go of that, you'll forget them. 386 00:25:59,145 --> 00:26:01,635 Um, or people won't think you love them as much. 387 00:26:02,175 --> 00:26:06,435 And you know, that's one of the things that a good group will 388 00:26:06,435 --> 00:26:08,195 help someone navigate through. 389 00:26:08,764 --> 00:26:12,000 And say, You can be angry and you can be sad, but that doesn't change anything. 390 00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:16,230 That just doesn't change your grief or your love for them. 391 00:26:16,860 --> 00:26:21,660 Um, and, but what it does do is it doesn't allow other people to 392 00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:23,940 love you or come close to you. 393 00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:27,389 Um, and it doesn't allow you to love other people. 394 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:34,230 And in my particular opinion, just my opinion, that that is, in a way, 395 00:26:34,620 --> 00:26:36,935 the opposite of what any one of our loved ones would want for us. 396 00:26:38,025 --> 00:26:43,755 I, I think even if, you know, whether people believe in the afterlife or 397 00:26:43,755 --> 00:26:48,104 not, there's all these fellows and gals that do this, you know, talk 398 00:26:48,104 --> 00:26:50,475 to the dead, you know, or whatever. 399 00:26:50,534 --> 00:26:54,165 Or when people see, see birds, or they see, you know, they have dreams of, 400 00:26:54,165 --> 00:26:58,245 of their loved ones, no one's ever upset, No one's ever mad at them, 401 00:26:58,455 --> 00:27:00,135 no one's ever holding any grudge. 402 00:27:00,375 --> 00:27:04,784 Every single time I've yet to hear of even one story where someone 403 00:27:04,784 --> 00:27:08,084 passed and didn't want more than anything for their loved ones on 404 00:27:08,084 --> 00:27:10,784 earth to be happy, that they're okay. 405 00:27:10,784 --> 00:27:18,720 And I would never want anyone to be sad all the time because my life was over. 406 00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:25,590 And I know that my son and, and my family are are like, Hey, please don't be upset. 407 00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:29,610 I would make them feel so bad to think that my life, I'm unable to 408 00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:32,970 love anyone again because my heart is so broken and I'm so empty. 409 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,720 I would hurt, that would grieve them. 410 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,090 And I, I refuse to upset them, as much as I can. 411 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,510 But I will cry, and I'll get upset, and I'll be sad for a moment, 412 00:27:46,530 --> 00:27:51,960 but, um, I'm kind of determined to love a little more because 413 00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:53,910 that's, those are hands that can't. 414 00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:58,950 Or give a little more in service because those are hands that can't now in, in the, 415 00:27:58,950 --> 00:28:00,990 in the tangible, physical way that I can. 416 00:28:01,950 --> 00:28:07,395 But, um, in groups also, one, I mean, I have to say that the, the 417 00:28:07,395 --> 00:28:09,735 VA has some of the best groups. 418 00:28:09,735 --> 00:28:15,045 If someone is lucky enough to be part of a, uh, the VA or a TAP situation, 419 00:28:15,045 --> 00:28:17,405 tragedy assistance for survivors, um, 420 00:28:19,574 --> 00:28:23,475 these people have long-term group relationships, um, with other 421 00:28:23,475 --> 00:28:26,835 people who have grieved and, and lost their children and loved ones. 422 00:28:27,405 --> 00:28:30,735 And they find they can, they, they always have an out with someone who 423 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:36,845 will understand what they're going through, that's a great relief. 424 00:28:36,885 --> 00:28:38,280 I, I, I like that a lot. 425 00:28:38,670 --> 00:28:43,920 You know, I think it's very important that people actually speak to 426 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:51,930 one another about the possibility and the release before we die. 427 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:56,730 Uh, I talk to my wife all the time and tell her, Look, I, I 428 00:28:56,730 --> 00:29:00,300 really don't want you to be sad. 429 00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:07,730 I want you to be happy, I want you to find another person to be with. 430 00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:15,720 You know, you don't have to remarry, but find someone to help you get through life. 431 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,460 It, it's important. 432 00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:24,405 So I don't know how many people actually take the time to speak with their loved 433 00:29:24,405 --> 00:29:33,555 ones about this and I, I think it comforts them a little in case that happens. 434 00:29:34,035 --> 00:29:39,885 There's no expectations here, you have to be who you are and carry on. 435 00:29:42,135 --> 00:29:42,525 You do. 436 00:29:42,525 --> 00:29:47,834 And I think it, the, the folks who don't have that conversation probably 437 00:29:47,834 --> 00:29:49,544 have a real, just fear of death. 438 00:29:50,415 --> 00:29:53,264 And a lot of anxiety of what would happen afterwards. 439 00:29:53,715 --> 00:30:00,614 Um, and, but that is, that is a, a true love of someone else. 440 00:30:00,824 --> 00:30:04,425 You know, if, if you believe that part of your relationship is to care 441 00:30:04,425 --> 00:30:08,774 for that person, to make sure they're cared for, that they're protected, um, 442 00:30:08,804 --> 00:30:13,890 physically, emotionally, spiritually, that that's part of your job as 443 00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:15,510 that, as that union of marriage. 444 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,250 Then if you knew, if you weren't able to do that, you would wanna make sure 445 00:30:20,250 --> 00:30:23,100 that they found someone that, that could, that could do that for them. 446 00:30:23,340 --> 00:30:26,850 And I think it's always important to say, I feel this is my job and I 447 00:30:26,850 --> 00:30:31,290 love you this way, and I, and I know that it, I would want someone else 448 00:30:31,290 --> 00:30:35,190 to, to pick up where I left off in making sure that you're cared for. 449 00:30:35,490 --> 00:30:39,855 And sometimes that could even be, you know, a, a child, or, you 450 00:30:39,855 --> 00:30:44,985 know, uh, a brother, or a sister, depending on the age, uh, of the, 451 00:30:46,905 --> 00:30:48,044 you know, of the family member. 452 00:30:48,044 --> 00:30:50,504 If they're, if they're in their eighties, they may not. 453 00:30:50,504 --> 00:30:53,715 But, but that, at that point, you have to make sure with your kids, 454 00:30:53,715 --> 00:30:57,855 ahead of time, what's gonna happen to mom or what would happen to dad. 455 00:30:58,875 --> 00:31:03,975 Because at some point it's not too common that spouses die at the same time. 456 00:31:04,995 --> 00:31:11,430 And though they may not be able to or want to have a new intimate relationship 457 00:31:11,550 --> 00:31:15,429 with the opposite, you know, get married again and, and such, but they will be 458 00:31:15,429 --> 00:31:22,860 alone for a time and it's important for the family, I believe, very important 459 00:31:22,860 --> 00:31:27,450 for the family to have made that decision and have them talks amongst themselves. 460 00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:32,550 And know what they're gonna do and what that plan is before one or the 461 00:31:32,550 --> 00:31:36,510 other parent passes because that just takes all the pressure off. 462 00:31:38,865 --> 00:31:42,285 Because that, when, if one of 'em had died suddenly, unless they're 463 00:31:42,285 --> 00:31:46,925 both in their eighties or something, um, and one dies suddenly, these are 464 00:31:46,925 --> 00:31:48,855 discussions that people start to panic. 465 00:31:50,115 --> 00:31:51,225 I don't wanna take them in. 466 00:31:51,345 --> 00:31:52,185 How am I gonna do it? 467 00:31:52,315 --> 00:31:53,205 When is this gonna happen? 468 00:31:53,205 --> 00:31:54,135 How would this work? 469 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,655 And it, it can really overshadow what's happening at, at the funeral 470 00:31:59,685 --> 00:32:03,795 'cause now they're having these conversations, um, in a moment of duress. 471 00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:06,810 When they never should have had these conversations in a moment of 472 00:32:06,810 --> 00:32:10,050 duress, and stress, and, and grief. 473 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:15,030 And so now a lot of wires are gonna get crossed, things will, people will say 474 00:32:15,030 --> 00:32:18,120 things that they probably may not have said if they had time to think about it. 475 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,929 So it's definitely, it's really good to plan. 476 00:32:21,929 --> 00:32:25,770 I mean, I'm planning, I have, I'm working on my own playlist because I 477 00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:28,860 know by the time I pass, no one's gonna know any of the music that I like. 478 00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:31,680 Yeah. 479 00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:35,879 Well, that, that is, that's exactly my point there. 480 00:32:36,210 --> 00:32:42,180 Uh, the more that we can do before we go, it, it really helps alleviate the 481 00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:48,030 pain and suffering that they're, they're going to have it, it's going to happen. 482 00:32:48,030 --> 00:32:53,310 You're gonna cry, you're gonna get outta shape, and you, you just 483 00:32:53,310 --> 00:32:55,160 don't know when that's gonna hit. 484 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,460 You know, some, sometimes you get through the funeral and 485 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,420 everything's fine, I, and then crash. 486 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:12,000 You know, so people, they do things differently and they respond differently. 487 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,500 We should prepare for them. 488 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,980 One thing I kind of, too in, in that vein, and circling back to something 489 00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:25,920 else that, that you said about how people grieve differently and also how 490 00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:29,340 this can incorporate with, if you're a friend of someone who's grieving. 491 00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:34,500 I, I'm gonna, this is a general statement, okay? 492 00:33:34,770 --> 00:33:38,880 In general, I've seen that men grieve very differently than women. 493 00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:45,000 There's a difference in the way that a lot of men grieve and, um, it may 494 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,010 have a lot to do with their upbringing and, and you know, where they grew up. 495 00:33:50,635 --> 00:33:57,195 But I don't see as many women doing runs, and hikes, and, and physical 496 00:33:57,195 --> 00:33:59,415 challenges to honor that person. 497 00:33:59,415 --> 00:34:03,165 I just need to do something physical, something tangible 498 00:34:03,165 --> 00:34:04,545 that I can say I did that. 499 00:34:05,085 --> 00:34:08,835 Um, and I see a lot of that with men and I honor that. 500 00:34:08,835 --> 00:34:11,865 And I feel if you're a friend of someone, that is an option. 501 00:34:11,865 --> 00:34:13,245 You can say, Hey, you know, 502 00:34:14,535 --> 00:34:17,985 would you like to, have you thought about make, doing a memorial run, 503 00:34:17,985 --> 00:34:24,495 or, or, um, um, a motorcycle run, or a hike, or a sponsorship for 504 00:34:24,495 --> 00:34:26,535 something, or a plaque of some kind? 505 00:34:26,535 --> 00:34:32,745 Have you thought about, you know, memorializing his, his life in some way? 506 00:34:32,895 --> 00:34:36,855 And that's not a bad conversation a little bit after, you know? 507 00:34:37,185 --> 00:34:40,215 If you have a, especially if it's a friend, if someone loses a friend. 508 00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:44,700 Let their guy friends, instead of just going through, having their own 509 00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:48,990 little celebration of life before they pass, uh, you know, do shots 510 00:34:48,990 --> 00:34:52,560 together, which is something you do not do at a funeral or memorial service, 511 00:34:52,830 --> 00:34:57,630 but might have a separate, you know, celebration of life in your own group. 512 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,450 That's something as a group can do. 513 00:35:00,870 --> 00:35:03,870 Now, I, I don't find that so often with women and that's totally okay. 514 00:35:04,020 --> 00:35:10,935 But if, if you're the spouse of, uh, and your husband has lost a best friend, or a 515 00:35:10,935 --> 00:35:13,215 brother, or someone, suggest that to them. 516 00:35:13,905 --> 00:35:16,245 Say, Hey, maybe I can help get your guys together. 517 00:35:16,425 --> 00:35:18,165 You guys can do something special. 518 00:35:18,735 --> 00:35:21,075 And, you know, do it for a couple years out, 519 00:35:21,645 --> 00:35:22,425 do something. 520 00:35:22,425 --> 00:35:28,095 And that allows them, um, an avenue to put their energies, um, to grieve. 521 00:35:28,155 --> 00:35:32,385 And when they have to compartmentalize to, to support other people, or go 522 00:35:32,385 --> 00:35:36,690 to work, and they have to sometimes shut down some of those feelings 523 00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:38,339 and that takes a lot of energy. 524 00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:42,779 But if they can bring 'em out in another form, that's pretty healthy 525 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,589 and, and it's definitely honoring and it brings other people together. 526 00:35:46,589 --> 00:35:48,505 And who wouldn't want that in their lives? 527 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:55,500 Yeah, that's more of a positive energy and, and that's what you really 528 00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:58,920 need to tap into during that time. 529 00:35:58,980 --> 00:36:02,759 Get outta that negative energy and tap into something positive. 530 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:09,480 Barbara, you are writing another book or have you already published it? 531 00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:12,990 Could you talk to us about that? 532 00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:15,330 Sure. 533 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,110 Um, well on, you know, since I seem to like to talk about awkward 534 00:36:19,110 --> 00:36:24,750 subjects, um, I am writing another small, it's small, it'll be similar. 535 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:27,279 And probably this is, this one's only like sixty bucks. 536 00:36:27,279 --> 00:36:29,100 They can get it on, I mean, sixty pages. 537 00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:32,400 They can get it on Amazon, they can download it 'cause it is a guide. 538 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,260 The second one is also a guide, but it's called, Getting Out, a Tactical 539 00:36:37,260 --> 00:36:39,090 Guide to Escaping Narcissism. 540 00:36:41,175 --> 00:36:47,355 So it's a, it's written in a, in a style like a, I read a, a survival 541 00:36:47,355 --> 00:36:51,645 guide that an ex-military man put together on how to survive out in the 542 00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:56,595 wilderness, and so that's the style that it's written in as if you're reading 543 00:36:56,595 --> 00:36:58,695 a tactical guide of, to survival. 544 00:37:00,375 --> 00:37:00,885 Right on. 545 00:37:01,065 --> 00:37:07,005 So what, what brought this, it, it's such a contrast to the first, what, 546 00:37:07,635 --> 00:37:10,185 what brought this into fruition? 547 00:37:11,685 --> 00:37:17,205 Well, one thing that happened when I was thinking about writing the What Not To 548 00:37:17,205 --> 00:37:24,285 Do At Funerals book was, that so much out there about grief was either a trigger 549 00:37:24,285 --> 00:37:28,515 to my own grief, or was just about grieving, or how to know you're grieving. 550 00:37:28,815 --> 00:37:33,194 And, and it was, most of it was kind of down and similar to these books on 551 00:37:33,254 --> 00:37:37,125 narcissism, which is now a little bit over ten percent of the population. 552 00:37:38,055 --> 00:37:39,855 Hard stop, it's kind of scary. 553 00:37:40,274 --> 00:37:47,670 Um, they were also about, you know, the PTSD, about, of coming out of 554 00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:51,330 a relationship, how to know your, how to recognize a narcissist 555 00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:52,890 and all the psychological stuff. 556 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,750 And they're kind of a downer too. 557 00:37:54,990 --> 00:38:00,090 And I had been in two, I hate to say it, two very different type 558 00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:02,460 of narcissists, uh, relationships. 559 00:38:03,270 --> 00:38:05,670 And I just wanted some hands-on practical stuff. 560 00:38:05,850 --> 00:38:07,170 Can you just tell me what to do? 561 00:38:07,350 --> 00:38:11,610 Can you tell me how, you know, how not to buy, get an attorney? 562 00:38:12,060 --> 00:38:16,200 You know, how, how maybe to get money away, what are some tangible things 563 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,120 that I can do a little bit at a time to regain my sense of self, to gain a 564 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,900 sense of control over the situation, and to kind of come to terms with, 565 00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,600 I'm in Jumanji, I am where I am. 566 00:38:28,410 --> 00:38:32,834 I am, there's, there's a predator and I am the prey. 567 00:38:33,314 --> 00:38:37,665 And if I just think of it that way, maybe each step along the way will give someone 568 00:38:37,665 --> 00:38:41,234 a little bit of encouragement to know they have some hands on things they can 569 00:38:41,234 --> 00:38:47,475 do to kind of take their life back little at a time and not bring 'em down, or 570 00:38:47,475 --> 00:38:49,595 make them feel bad, or guilty, or shamed. 571 00:38:50,444 --> 00:38:53,535 And that's, uh, definitely the direction I don't wanna go. 572 00:38:54,794 --> 00:39:00,254 Well, I really think you, you said ten percent, I, I, I would really 573 00:39:00,254 --> 00:39:03,285 have thought it was higher than that. 574 00:39:03,645 --> 00:39:13,995 Uh, we, we find ourselves being pushed into narcissism anymore, and it seems like 575 00:39:13,995 --> 00:39:17,355 everyone has a touch of it in our society. 576 00:39:17,595 --> 00:39:22,694 So helping people recognize this, is very important. 577 00:39:23,145 --> 00:39:30,990 And especially for those breaking up and stepping back into the 578 00:39:30,990 --> 00:39:32,940 world, they're vulnerable. 579 00:39:33,090 --> 00:39:38,009 They may not even feel that they're vulnerable, but they are vulnerable. 580 00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:43,150 They've been out of the dating scene for many, many years and 581 00:39:43,150 --> 00:39:45,280 they get thrust back into it. 582 00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:54,940 So there's a lot that people should consider as they reenter this dating game. 583 00:39:56,860 --> 00:39:59,970 Yes, I call it rewilding yourself. 584 00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:05,040 And there is, there's some, but there's some really quick ways to 585 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,660 find out if someone is a narcissist. 586 00:40:07,110 --> 00:40:10,590 And I would, I do agree, selfishness is definitely on the rise. 587 00:40:10,940 --> 00:40:16,740 Inconsideration is definitely, um, at a level I've never experienced. 588 00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:22,620 And, but they may not be narcissists, you know, 'cause a narcissist 589 00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:25,260 cannot, cannot do self-reflection. 590 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:29,950 Um, and so there's a, there's a few quick things you can just ask someone, 591 00:40:30,570 --> 00:40:31,905 um, especially if you're dating. 592 00:40:32,805 --> 00:40:37,695 Um, at that first date or that first meet, um, that will determine immediately 593 00:40:37,695 --> 00:40:38,955 if they're a narcissist or not. 594 00:40:39,765 --> 00:40:42,645 And by the way, speed dating is, there's more narcissists at 595 00:40:42,645 --> 00:40:44,535 speed dating than any place else. 596 00:40:44,535 --> 00:40:46,305 So if you wanna meet one, that's where to go. 597 00:40:47,555 --> 00:40:48,535 Yeah, don't speed date. 598 00:40:48,975 --> 00:40:50,905 They're the best, 599 00:40:50,975 --> 00:40:53,100 they do the best at speed dating is the narcissist. 600 00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:55,890 So don't, don't go there, you're, you're probably gonna get one. 601 00:40:56,339 --> 00:41:00,450 Um, so there's some, there's some great ways to just very quickly 602 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,740 ask a couple of quick questions. 603 00:41:01,740 --> 00:41:03,299 You can't say, Are you a narcissist? 604 00:41:03,779 --> 00:41:06,810 But if they had gotten out of, been out of a relationship, you can 605 00:41:06,810 --> 00:41:08,430 say, ask them what they learned. 606 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,680 How are they different from that relationship? 607 00:41:10,799 --> 00:41:12,540 And they will not have learned anything. 608 00:41:14,010 --> 00:41:14,850 Interesting. 609 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,410 That, that's big, you know? 610 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:21,090 A lot of, a lot of people that are out there talking about narcissistic 611 00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:27,210 behavior, they are not identifying those traits like that and saying, 612 00:41:27,210 --> 00:41:35,610 Look, this is a behavior trait that will give you a higher suspicion count on 613 00:41:35,610 --> 00:41:38,490 this individual if this is happening. 614 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:44,775 So to be able to name that and just stop the grouping, because I, I 615 00:41:44,775 --> 00:41:49,905 think you touched a little there, a lot of people get grouped in with 616 00:41:49,905 --> 00:41:56,355 narcissists, but they don't have those identifying characteristics. 617 00:41:56,355 --> 00:42:03,105 And I think what you outlined there is very important for so many podcasters and 618 00:42:03,375 --> 00:42:06,315 media influencers to realize nowadays. 619 00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:08,940 It's true. 620 00:42:08,940 --> 00:42:12,420 I mean, you, everybody, someone might be a little narcissistic here and there, 621 00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:18,390 but, uh, a true narcissist definitely has multiple, you know, internal personalities 622 00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:20,370 and is definitely, is detached. 623 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,850 You know, there's the psychopaths and sociopaths and are, are 624 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,300 both narcissists and narcissist. 625 00:42:26,610 --> 00:42:30,720 So they're, there's, it's definitely a kind of a disorder and they're not gonna 626 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:32,280 change and they're not gonna get better. 627 00:42:33,210 --> 00:42:36,300 You know, tiger, they don't, tigers don't change their stripes kind of thing. 628 00:42:37,185 --> 00:42:37,754 That's right. 629 00:42:38,174 --> 00:42:43,605 So when do you suspect this to be released for publication? 630 00:42:44,535 --> 00:42:48,544 Probably not till closer to the end of the year, I know it's May. 631 00:42:48,575 --> 00:42:51,615 But like for four or five months, I was doing a ton of podcasts 632 00:42:51,975 --> 00:42:55,634 and, um, starting to do some public speaking on, on, on this. 633 00:42:56,865 --> 00:43:02,384 But I have to say, I, I've been pleasantly surprised how many folks have said, 634 00:43:02,384 --> 00:43:03,845 Could you please hurry up the other book? 635 00:43:04,635 --> 00:43:04,785 You know, 636 00:43:06,795 --> 00:43:07,965 I can always add to it. 637 00:43:07,965 --> 00:43:09,435 I can always add a chapter. 638 00:43:10,725 --> 00:43:11,145 Yeah. 639 00:43:11,265 --> 00:43:15,915 Well, that, that's very interesting because that really outlines what 640 00:43:15,915 --> 00:43:21,075 we just said, it's on the rise of being a popular discussion topic. 641 00:43:21,555 --> 00:43:26,970 So people should actually realize what their topic of discussion 642 00:43:27,060 --> 00:43:34,470 really entails instead of just a few character flaws that many of us have. 643 00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:42,240 So my wife outlines that a lot to me, you know, and it's really interesting. 644 00:43:44,995 --> 00:43:45,885 What does she do? 645 00:43:46,995 --> 00:43:53,759 Well, she, she says there's so many people out there that say that people 646 00:43:53,759 --> 00:43:57,569 are narcissist, but they're really not. 647 00:43:57,569 --> 00:44:02,850 It's just a character trait that they might be displaying at the time. 648 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,430 So this one of those things that we talk about, you know? 649 00:44:09,029 --> 00:44:10,440 Do you see this? 650 00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:15,569 And I think that's vital that people have that open communication about that. 651 00:44:17,245 --> 00:44:18,475 Oh, absolutely. 652 00:44:18,664 --> 00:44:23,924 Um, and the other, but the other point, um, like, like to your wife's 653 00:44:23,924 --> 00:44:29,294 discussion is that someone can truly be a narcissist, but they're not extreme. 654 00:44:30,464 --> 00:44:33,454 You know, they haven't taken their narcissism to a psychopathic level 655 00:44:33,914 --> 00:44:37,754 or, um, and so there, there are those who are more extreme than others. 656 00:44:38,564 --> 00:44:43,995 But they still can't answer the same questions and they're still gonna fall 657 00:44:45,435 --> 00:44:50,625 to being a victim on everything that's ever happened in their lives, you know? 658 00:44:50,714 --> 00:44:55,754 And they might be very covert, and poor, pitiful, poor me, uh, and the one 659 00:44:55,754 --> 00:45:01,095 who's in the corner of the room, um, feeling like he's eyeing everybody out. 660 00:45:01,095 --> 00:45:04,335 Or they may be the, you know, overtly and hey, you know, 661 00:45:04,335 --> 00:45:05,805 like those car salesman types. 662 00:45:06,375 --> 00:45:06,705 Um, 663 00:45:08,775 --> 00:45:11,775 but, you know, and there's just a different approach. 664 00:45:11,775 --> 00:45:16,995 One is a snake, you know, they slither and, you know, one is more loud. 665 00:45:16,995 --> 00:45:19,815 So there's different type of predators out there, but those are 666 00:45:19,815 --> 00:45:23,385 the ones that are definitely the, you know, the meat eaters that want 667 00:45:23,385 --> 00:45:24,675 you, that are gonna take you down. 668 00:45:26,085 --> 00:45:29,445 I, I've enjoyed our conversation today, Barbara. 669 00:45:29,685 --> 00:45:33,345 Is there anything that we should add to the conversation? 670 00:45:34,275 --> 00:45:35,445 Gosh, there's so much. 671 00:45:35,445 --> 00:45:40,680 Um, I would say that this, I think other things that are, that are really 672 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,080 fun in the book, and I'll just say if anyone's out there and they're 673 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:49,290 interested, some, some other topics that, that, that are discussed are like what 674 00:45:49,770 --> 00:45:51,660 options to say other than, I'm sorry. 675 00:45:51,779 --> 00:45:54,660 There's a whole group of options you can say other than I'm sorry, 676 00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:57,330 which is probably the most popular. 677 00:45:57,660 --> 00:46:00,660 Because there are, even folks who are grieving who just say, please, 678 00:46:00,660 --> 00:46:01,830 I don't wanna hear that anymore. 679 00:46:02,580 --> 00:46:07,080 Um, I think that's probably one of the, the biggest and, just 680 00:46:07,169 --> 00:46:10,950 like we discussed, ways to be the best person that you can be. 681 00:46:11,729 --> 00:46:16,680 And being able to be there for someone else really makes you feel special 682 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,129 and makes other people know that, you know, you're a person of character. 683 00:46:21,209 --> 00:46:24,629 And so even though we're talking about there are a growing amount of 684 00:46:24,629 --> 00:46:28,950 narcissists out there, I think there's a few more people that wouldn't be 685 00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:32,040 considered a narcissist if they had just a few little guidelines of what 686 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,500 to do or how to get away from folks. 687 00:46:35,955 --> 00:46:37,065 It's gonna be a better world. 688 00:46:37,904 --> 00:46:40,845 We'll make it better one podcast at a time. 689 00:46:42,435 --> 00:46:44,504 That's what we're out here doing, Barbara. 690 00:46:44,835 --> 00:46:48,944 And I, I can't say thank you enough for sharing here today. 691 00:46:49,305 --> 00:46:54,075 Could you tell people how to reach out to you, get involved with 692 00:46:54,075 --> 00:46:56,055 you, and how to find your book? 693 00:46:56,504 --> 00:46:56,955 Sure. 694 00:46:56,955 --> 00:47:01,634 Well, my, my, this book right now, What Not To Do At Funerals is on, uh, Amazon. 695 00:47:02,250 --> 00:47:04,649 So they can purchase it there and download it there. 696 00:47:04,799 --> 00:47:10,620 They can also go to bowheart.com, which is my business, and it discusses a 697 00:47:10,620 --> 00:47:14,410 little bit more about, about my books and how to contact me at Bowheart. 698 00:47:14,970 --> 00:47:17,640 And if they have any suggestions or things they would wanna make sure 699 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,029 that I put in the book, I would love to, for them to pass that on to me. 700 00:47:21,390 --> 00:47:27,359 So at either bowheart.com, just like it sounds, bow heart, um, or 701 00:47:27,359 --> 00:47:29,730 What Not To Do At Funerals, we'll get you all that information. 702 00:47:31,230 --> 00:47:31,980 All right. 703 00:47:32,250 --> 00:47:35,910 Well, I enjoyed our conversation today, Barbara. 704 00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:36,930 Thank you for being here. 705 00:47:38,220 --> 00:47:40,560 My pleasure, thank you so much. 706 00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:45,720 Thank you for joining us today. 707 00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:52,589 If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, 708 00:47:53,370 --> 00:47:59,790 please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another 709 00:47:59,790 --> 00:48:03,210 great episode of the Dead America Podcast. 710 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:09,020 I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.