But, uh, a true narcissist definitely has multiple, you know, internal
personalities and definitely is detached.
You know, there's psychopaths and sociopaths and are, are both
narcissists, I mean, narcissist.
So they're, there's, it's definitely a kind of a disorder and they're not gonna
change, and they're not gonna get better.
Today, we are speaking with Barbara Bowman.
She is the author of What Not To Do at Funerals.
Barbara, could you please introduce yourself?
And let people know just a little more about you, please.
Sure.
Um, well, thank you very much for sharing your audience with me.
And, uh, take some time to talk about one of my passions, which is
all these faux pas, and, um, lack of decorum, and things that have really
caused problems in people's lives and families over something as common as,
uh, funeral, death, and, and grieving.
Um, I have had a lot of these in my life.
Most of my family members, my parents, uh, my siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents,
my own son, my dogs have all passed and so I've had a lot of experience with that.
And at the same time, because I've had a lot of experience in my regular
life where, um, I work in a med spa,
I'm a med spa where we do like skin treatments on folks and we get kind of
personal, um, I am an easy conduit for people to say, Hey, guess what happened at
my funeral, or my, not my funeral, but my, the funeral of my mother or my brother.
Could you believe this?
I can't believe this happened.
Um, and so over and over again, I said, I should write a book about
this and just help people out.
And not to make it heavy, not to make it sad, not for it to be a
trigger for anyone, but just as, um, a simple guide to kind of,
you know, in a lighthearted way, just answer some of those basic questions.
So it's not gonna be awkward or weird anymore.
And if you do screw up, there's some simple ways to,
to repair those relationships.
And so I thought it was important and now a passion.
Well, death is hard to deal with for a lot of people because of that
emotional track that is attached to it.
You know, it's always devastating and it happens at the wrong time.
And, you know, when we're young it can really be grievous.
So it's awesome to have somebody out there trying to help you through this.
I've had several of those funerals myself and, you know, when you start burying
your brothers and, uh, all of that, it, it gets pretty traumatic at times.
Am I next?
You know, that's the big question.
So what is the big takeaway from your book?
I mean, how, how is this thing written and does it walk you through each of
the phases going through the funeral?
Or what is the book about?
A little bit.
Um, the book's actually written kind of punchy, um, it's, there's a, there's a
little bit of tongue and cheek in it.
Not that death or grieving at all is, is not a serious matter, but it's, in
a large part written for people who have not been on that side of grieving.
And grief is something that once you experience it, you're always
going to have grief in your life.
You could experience different levels of grief depending on the relationship
of the person that's passed that you have, it's always gonna be different.
I mean, it is.
Um, people don't realize how serious it is when someone loses a
long-term pet if you're not a pet lover, but you have to honor that.
And if it's a very different type of grief, if you have a grandparent or
someone who's been ill for an exceptional amount of time as opposed to someone,
something that's happened suddenly where there was no expectation, there's
been an accident or, or suicide,
um, and these are all, have their own type of trauma.
And if someone doesn't have a platform of how to kind of respond to that,
they can really destroy relationships.
And they can end up making what could be a very serious or supportive, um,
ceremony and turn it to be about them.
And that is the worst thing you can do.
So it's, it's very direct and to the point, you know, what
do you do when someone dies?
What's the first thing you do when you find out someone's
passed that you know, you know?
Um, you, you, you send a card.
I don't care if that person's been like deceased for four or five years.
If you just found out and they, or someone you had a relationship with, or it meant
something to you, um, you send that family a card because that, that person will
live forever in their lives, you know?
Um, some people don't wanna go to funerals because they, it makes
them queasy and so we discuss that.
Um, basics, real basics like what not to wear, um, what to wear.
Um, these, you know, there's been some, I have some, there's been some
really fun topics that have come up and, um, oddly enough, the, the same
basic questions come up every time.
So, so it's kind of interesting that, what to wear at a funeral.
Because it, it's kind of odd, our day and time now, people may
not necessarily think about that.
But you don't wanna go to a funeral dressed like you're
going to Walmart, do you?
Oh, but people do.
And, and it's, and it's definitely seen and it's definitely remembered.
I have, you know, for the most part, especially since COVID, and I, I'm,
I'm a bit older, but I think COVID, um, kind of did a number and, on folks
kind of forgetting what some of these, some of the normalities we had around.
What would happen when someone, when someone died, all kind of got
blown out, out, out of the water.
And there's a lot of people who are millennial age, maybe in their
early thirties, um, who are just now experiencing a death in their family.
And so to them they're thinking, Should I make a statement?
We don't, we wear black now at a wedding.
We didn't wear black at weddings before, why should I have to wear black?
Um, there's a lot of these kind of strange questions.
But you have to remember, especially in America, we have a lot of different
religions and a lot of different beliefs.
And it's, and other countries, they have a main religion and main ceremonies
that people have done for decades.
It's part of their, their national culture and we kind of don't have that anymore.
Especially since the church population has, has dwindled so much, it's,
it's still even more of a loss.
And so there have been people that have wore cocktail
dresses because it was black.
But it was also shiny and cut down to their belly button, so not appropriate.
There was one instance though, I will say, and I wrote about it in the
book, there's, um, most of them tend to be serious, you wanna dress like
you're going to a job interview or you're meeting your, um, significant
other's parents for the first time.
Something conservative, something respectful, um,
doesn't always have to be darker.
But I did have a friend who, it was a formal memorial service for her mom
who was an avid gardener, and so the daughters all wore these bright sundresses
and that was in respect for their mom.
Anyone else who wore something like that was considered out of
place and inappropriate, because it was the memorial service.
So that was, uh, you know, when people come in and they say, Well,
I, I knew her, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna wear something that I think
represents the way she would dress.
Well, it's not about how you would represent her, it's
about supporting the family.
So there's a lot of situations.
And just real quick, one more, I have a, um, another where a gentleman passed
and he worked on the, in the city, and they worked on, on the roads.
They have what, what we would call a wake.
A wake is usually open to the public and just anybody and everybody who wants
to can usually attend a wake and they may go on for, for four or five hours.
Um, and this gentleman worked with him on the job.
He came after work in his muddy work boots, in his bright orange, you know,
those neon orange shirts you wear when you're working on the road, and
came in and sat next to the family.
And this woman came into my office and she was mortified.
She said, This guy couldn't have put a decent pair of shoes, muddied shoes
all the way down through the funeral parlor, he couldn't have put an extra
pair of shoes in his, in his truck?
He couldn't have gone home?
We were there for four hours, what was wrong with this guy?
And that was the first thing she told me when, the week after the funeral.
It stuck with her that that was, the guy was lazy and disrespectful.
Probably there just for the free food.
Yeah.
You, you know, another thing, Barbara, is people need to think for
themselves during this time and not lean in on the family necessarily.
Because they, they have their minds full.
So what to wear.
You don't wanna reach out to the family and say, Hey, what should I be wearing?
You should have that emotional intelligence, emotional support,
you know, for the family.
And a lot of people, they don't have that.
Yeah.
It's not like people don't have a television where they
haven't seen, they don't.
But you could always call, these, these things always take place at a location.
Even if it's a celebration of life, which, um, could happen anywhere.
Um, or if it's at a particular church or synagogue.
Um, if you're not sure, you just call the, the funeral director or you call
the, that church or that location.
They'll know.
They'll know what's gonna happen in the ceremony and they're gonna know
what to wear, um, and things like that.
There's always someone you can call, you don't have to call a family member
and drag them down with more details.
Yeah.
The, this is kind of why I, I think it's critical that people understand,
and if they don't, get your book.
Because I, I've performed a few of these funerals myself and, you know, the
last funeral I did was for my cousin.
And I ended up putting him in the back of my truck and took him from Klamath
Falls all the way over the mountain in a pickup truck instead of the hearse.
The family, at that time, they couldn't, uh, afford the services.
So I stepped in and said, Hey, let's do this.
And, you know, I'll put him in my truck, that'll save you expense there.
And it's really about supporting the family and getting it done.
You are so right.
And I just, lemme just give you kudos.
I think that was a really nice thing for you to do and it was very thoughtful
and it took a lot of weight off of them.
And it, and it showed how much you cared about him.
And that you performed a, you just said, Hey, I can, I can pick up the slack here.
I see a need, I'm gonna meet it.
And, you know, I don't, I don't know you, but that's, that's a
level of character and kindness that is hard to find these days.
But that's exactly what you need to do.
You're like, Well, I don't know what to do.
And, you know, it's one of the hardest things that you can say to, to, to
a family, because as you know, when someone dies, it's a ton of work.
It is.
It's so much work, it's exhausting.
And you might get a very short amount of time to deal with all their effects, um,
you may not even know what, but you might end up having a funeral or some type of
service before you even completely know,
you know, the full story around the death.
There's a lot of things that happen that are exhausting and there's a lot of
PTSD that's, that happens just to make ends meet, just to make details happen.
So if you're a neighbor or you're a friend, I would, I
wish everyone acted like you.
I wish they said, You know what?
I'm just gonna go mow their lawn.
I'm not gonna ask them, just gonna mow their law.
I'm just gonna drop off some food.
If they don't eat it, they don't like it, they don't answer the door, I
don't care, just gonna drop it off.
Um, you know, if the, if it's out of, if it's a relative who dies suddenly
or something and they have to go out of town, you know, I, one example I leave is,
you, if you're their friend, you should instantly become the best Uber driver in
the world at three o'clock in the morning.
It's, it might be a small inconvenience for you to take someone to the airport
so they can get across country for a funeral they didn't expect, but it
is so much harder for them, you know?
'Cause they're not going to Disney World.
They're gonna go to some, they had no expectation of doing, so
coming up and saying, just taking a minute, just taking a beat and
say, What might I need right now?
And then just doing it for them.
You know, and if you, you know, I know you have to go to your aunt's house, can I
watch your kids for you during that time?
I'll change my schedule.
You know, or I have some time can I watch your kids during that time?
I'd really appreciate it, an opportunity to do that.
Just, that's an offer.
Um, and to take it one step further, I think the best, um, friend and support
person is the one that shows up a week, two weeks, or a month later.
That if your friend, maybe they've been through quite a few funerals, or if,
or if it was someone who they knew was gonna pass and so, so many things had
already been laid out and prepared,
and you say, Hey, you know, if they say, Truly we've, we're, we've taken it
all down, we have it all put together.
We don't, we don't need any help.
Well, check in a week or two later.
show up again, show up then with a little, with some food or take 'em out.
Say, Hey, can we do lunch?
You don't have to talk about anything.
I just wanna give you either some, a good time or maybe some time to just
blow off some, some grief that you're now experiencing that you couldn't
experience the two weeks earlier when all, every bit of energy you're using is
to deal with the funeral and all of that.
You know, that's when a lot of the grief really happens is a
week or two later, or starts.
Yeah.
That, that is a really interesting question because everybody
grieves differently and we process it out differently.
And sometimes that can actually take several years, you know, if a
wife loses a husband or whatever.
So that support system after and the longevity of that support,
I, I really think that matters.
And how do we determine if the person is okay and we can stop
supporting them in this situation?
You don't.
You know, um, I think
getting, being able, being able to get back to regular life, and
by that, it, that's your, your new normal, your new regular life, um,
really does depend on who passed.
Sometimes it is, if a parent was your best friend and your
parent, well, you've, you have two relationships you're gonna grieve.
Um, if it was a long-term spouse, I think, and, and, and a child,
I think that there is grief that you'll always have and that's okay.
And I think it's totally okay to be, you know, um, I have, I'm grieving a
little bit right, today over my, you know, my son or my, my dad who died
five years ago, or you may always feel sad for, for a little bit.
And you can always be supportive.
Um, and I think the way you can do that is never be afraid to
talk about the person that died.
I have a friend who really was not there for me when, uh, when my son
passed, and I was shocked by that.
And when you have one of these monumentous experiences of grief and loss, um, you
know, not just a, a work colleague, or a college, high school or college friend,
but you know, or a neighbor, but something much more significant, you will really
find out who the people are in your life who are gonna be there or not there.
It's, it does put a, a line in the sand.
And yet this woman, um, who was very unsupportive, she
just kind of checked out.
Um, she has never forgotten my son's birthday, ever.
She continues to call.
She says, Hey, you know, and it's, so it's in her calendar.
And so, and every year she'll call me up and we'll talk for
a few minutes about my son.
And I think I'm always gonna grieve the, the loss of his life
that I could have had with him.
But knowing that there's people around who, who just maintain
the fun, wonderful parts of their relationship and their personality, ah,
it's like a, it's the most wonderful thing in the world.
Yeah.
You know, my, my mother lost my oldest brother when he was sixteen.
And I, I was just a child at the time, but I watched my mother and my father
take that to the grave with them.
Uh, so that grieving, it, it happens differently.
And it does, it happens lifelong because there's an attachment there.
Especially if it's a son or a daughter, you know, someone very close like that.
Uh, what's the best way to help people like that?
Uh, because, you know, we all wanna say, How can I help you?
But how do we help?
Yeah.
You can't.
Well, I think in some of those situations there's, there's a lot you, you can't
do other than allow them to grieve.
Um, and to the, to grievers out there, I have experienced grief
with and without grief support and very specific, um, grief counseling.
And I can tell you it is night and day.
If there are people and, you know, a few decades ago, grief counseling or grief
groups was just so few and far between.
Um, and if you had insurance, insurance wouldn't, wouldn't
cover that sort of thing.
But what a difference when you go through this horrible kind of
like Jumanji world, you know, your whole world is upside down now.
Um, nothing is, nothing is gonna be the same, no future situation's gonna be
the same, no Christmas, no birthdays, no holidays are gonna be the same
because, 'cause your brother's gone.
Now if you are speaking with other people who are going through that, you'll be
able to find some kind of normalcy.
Like, I'm not, I'm not going crazy that I still cry over this.
I'm not going crazy that I still feel this loss even though I have these other kids.
I, I can't say enough about professional support, uh, in those days where
your body just can't maybe get outta bed or get out of a chair.
And, you know, you have a support or support person that says, Yeah, I remember
that day, tomorrow will be different.
Um, and I, I, and I think feeling like you can't talk about it, or feeling like you
can't take a moment to grieve and be sad, or you have to leave the other room 'cause
it's gonna make people uncomfortable, um, I think that's really hard.
Um, but it is something we have to do.
Unfortunately, those of us who, um, have had or dealing with severe
grief have to do a little bit of counseling, whether we like it or not.
To the people around us,
um, who have not and may never experience what we're going through, and to
just tell them, Yeah, I'm gonna have moments where I'm just really sad.
You know, certain songs may help me feel better.
Certain songs may make me feel bad, but I'm always gonna
feel bad because I love 'em.
Just tell 'em, I'm, I'm always gonna miss 'em.
I'm always gonna love them.
And most of the time I'm happy thinking of, thinking of them, but every
once in a while, I'm gonna be sad.
You know, and I, I, I hope you're okay with that.
You know, you're not gonna ruin everyone's dinner, you're not
gonna ruin all of Christmas.
But if your mom has a few moments where she's thinking about
your brother, let her have it.
Just go, Yeah, I know he is still here.
If you believe, that's your belief, say, You know, why would he miss
a Christmas, um, with the family?
If you believe, you know, that there's angels or spirits or if, if you have a
belief that they're, they have contact with us then I would believe that your
brother is there every single time.
'Cause it's his family and he is invested.
Yep.
Yep, I, I like that a lot.
So I, I really think that you touched on something very important.
Uh, it, it doesn't even really have to be a counselor, but a group of individuals
that experienced a similar situation.
That's relation.
You know, it, it's, they can relate to you a lot better than most people.
You know, we have no clue how you feel so having that support system is vital.
And I think if my mother and my father would've found that type of support,
it, it would've helped change the dynamics in our family long term.
So I, I like that you encourage that.
And you can't get that from social media.
Right.
You cannot get that from social media.
Someone might be speaking about their loss or their grief or, or what their
steps in the grieving process were like.
And that may resonate with you, but it also might make you feel, well,
I'm not experiencing what they're experiencing, so what's wrong with me?
So, you know, it has its place, but it's, you know, and I, you may, you
can't relate to this either, but it's kind of like being pregnant.
If you were pregnant and you were the only person around that was
pregnant, you wouldn't have anyone to say, What does this feel like?
How is this now?
What to do.
You know, this is, maybe you can't experience that.
So, but it is, this is why there's these, these types of groups.
The only caveat I have is that there have been some, you know, I've, I've
been in some groups that I've gotten out of fairly quickly because you also
don't wanna use it as a group where you, um, there's some people, I'll put it
this way, that feel that for, at least for a time, that if they're not sad
or angry that maybe they didn't love them as much as they thought they did.
That, and being sad and being depressed, and shutting people out, and carrying
that, you know, that intensity with them is somehow honoring that deceased.
Um, and not, and the, the fear that if you let go of that, you'll forget them.
Um, or people won't think you love them as much.
And you know, that's one of the things that a good group will
help someone navigate through.
And say, You can be angry and you can be sad, but that doesn't change anything.
That just doesn't change your grief or your love for them.
Um, and, but what it does do is it doesn't allow other people to
love you or come close to you.
Um, and it doesn't allow you to love other people.
And in my particular opinion, just my opinion, that that is, in a way,
the opposite of what any one of our loved ones would want for us.
I, I think even if, you know, whether people believe in the afterlife or
not, there's all these fellows and gals that do this, you know, talk
to the dead, you know, or whatever.
Or when people see, see birds, or they see, you know, they have dreams of,
of their loved ones, no one's ever upset, No one's ever mad at them,
no one's ever holding any grudge.
Every single time I've yet to hear of even one story where someone
passed and didn't want more than anything for their loved ones on
earth to be happy, that they're okay.
And I would never want anyone to be sad all the time because my life was over.
And I know that my son and, and my family are are like, Hey, please don't be upset.
I would make them feel so bad to think that my life, I'm unable to
love anyone again because my heart is so broken and I'm so empty.
I would hurt, that would grieve them.
And I, I refuse to upset them, as much as I can.
But I will cry, and I'll get upset, and I'll be sad for a moment,
but, um, I'm kind of determined to love a little more because
that's, those are hands that can't.
Or give a little more in service because those are hands that can't now in, in the,
in the tangible, physical way that I can.
But, um, in groups also, one, I mean, I have to say that the, the
VA has some of the best groups.
If someone is lucky enough to be part of a, uh, the VA or a TAP situation,
tragedy assistance for survivors, um,
these people have long-term group relationships, um, with other
people who have grieved and, and lost their children and loved ones.
And they find they can, they, they always have an out with someone who
will understand what they're going through, that's a great relief.
I, I, I like that a lot.
You know, I think it's very important that people actually speak to
one another about the possibility and the release before we die.
Uh, I talk to my wife all the time and tell her, Look, I, I
really don't want you to be sad.
I want you to be happy, I want you to find another person to be with.
You know, you don't have to remarry, but find someone to help you get through life.
It, it's important.
So I don't know how many people actually take the time to speak with their loved
ones about this and I, I think it comforts them a little in case that happens.
There's no expectations here, you have to be who you are and carry on.
You do.
And I think it, the, the folks who don't have that conversation probably
have a real, just fear of death.
And a lot of anxiety of what would happen afterwards.
Um, and, but that is, that is a, a true love of someone else.
You know, if, if you believe that part of your relationship is to care
for that person, to make sure they're cared for, that they're protected, um,
physically, emotionally, spiritually, that that's part of your job as
that, as that union of marriage.
Then if you knew, if you weren't able to do that, you would wanna make sure
that they found someone that, that could, that could do that for them.
And I think it's always important to say, I feel this is my job and I
love you this way, and I, and I know that it, I would want someone else
to, to pick up where I left off in making sure that you're cared for.
And sometimes that could even be, you know, a, a child, or, you
know, uh, a brother, or a sister, depending on the age, uh, of the,
you know, of the family member.
If they're, if they're in their eighties, they may not.
But, but that, at that point, you have to make sure with your kids,
ahead of time, what's gonna happen to mom or what would happen to dad.
Because at some point it's not too common that spouses die at the same time.
And though they may not be able to or want to have a new intimate relationship
with the opposite, you know, get married again and, and such, but they will be
alone for a time and it's important for the family, I believe, very important
for the family to have made that decision and have them talks amongst themselves.
And know what they're gonna do and what that plan is before one or the
other parent passes because that just takes all the pressure off.
Because that, when, if one of 'em had died suddenly, unless they're
both in their eighties or something, um, and one dies suddenly, these are
discussions that people start to panic.
I don't wanna take them in.
How am I gonna do it?
When is this gonna happen?
How would this work?
And it, it can really overshadow what's happening at, at the funeral
'cause now they're having these conversations, um, in a moment of duress.
When they never should have had these conversations in a moment of
duress, and stress, and, and grief.
And so now a lot of wires are gonna get crossed, things will, people will say
things that they probably may not have said if they had time to think about it.
So it's definitely, it's really good to plan.
I mean, I'm planning, I have, I'm working on my own playlist because I
know by the time I pass, no one's gonna know any of the music that I like.
Yeah.
Well, that, that is, that's exactly my point there.
Uh, the more that we can do before we go, it, it really helps alleviate the
pain and suffering that they're, they're going to have it, it's going to happen.
You're gonna cry, you're gonna get outta shape, and you, you just
don't know when that's gonna hit.
You know, some, sometimes you get through the funeral and
everything's fine, I, and then crash.
You know, so people, they do things differently and they respond differently.
We should prepare for them.
One thing I kind of, too in, in that vein, and circling back to something
else that, that you said about how people grieve differently and also how
this can incorporate with, if you're a friend of someone who's grieving.
I, I'm gonna, this is a general statement, okay?
In general, I've seen that men grieve very differently than women.
There's a difference in the way that a lot of men grieve and, um, it may
have a lot to do with their upbringing and, and you know, where they grew up.
But I don't see as many women doing runs, and hikes, and, and physical
challenges to honor that person.
I just need to do something physical, something tangible
that I can say I did that.
Um, and I see a lot of that with men and I honor that.
And I feel if you're a friend of someone, that is an option.
You can say, Hey, you know,
would you like to, have you thought about make, doing a memorial run,
or, or, um, um, a motorcycle run, or a hike, or a sponsorship for
something, or a plaque of some kind?
Have you thought about, you know, memorializing his, his life in some way?
And that's not a bad conversation a little bit after, you know?
If you have a, especially if it's a friend, if someone loses a friend.
Let their guy friends, instead of just going through, having their own
little celebration of life before they pass, uh, you know, do shots
together, which is something you do not do at a funeral or memorial service,
but might have a separate, you know, celebration of life in your own group.
That's something as a group can do.
Now, I, I don't find that so often with women and that's totally okay.
But if, if you're the spouse of, uh, and your husband has lost a best friend, or a
brother, or someone, suggest that to them.
Say, Hey, maybe I can help get your guys together.
You guys can do something special.
And, you know, do it for a couple years out,
do something.
And that allows them, um, an avenue to put their energies, um, to grieve.
And when they have to compartmentalize to, to support other people, or go
to work, and they have to sometimes shut down some of those feelings
and that takes a lot of energy.
But if they can bring 'em out in another form, that's pretty healthy
and, and it's definitely honoring and it brings other people together.
And who wouldn't want that in their lives?
Yeah, that's more of a positive energy and, and that's what you really
need to tap into during that time.
Get outta that negative energy and tap into something positive.
Barbara, you are writing another book or have you already published it?
Could you talk to us about that?
Sure.
Um, well on, you know, since I seem to like to talk about awkward
subjects, um, I am writing another small, it's small, it'll be similar.
And probably this is, this one's only like sixty bucks.
They can get it on, I mean, sixty pages.
They can get it on Amazon, they can download it 'cause it is a guide.
The second one is also a guide, but it's called, Getting Out, a Tactical
Guide to Escaping Narcissism.
So it's a, it's written in a, in a style like a, I read a, a survival
guide that an ex-military man put together on how to survive out in the
wilderness, and so that's the style that it's written in as if you're reading
a tactical guide of, to survival.
Right on.
So what, what brought this, it, it's such a contrast to the first, what,
what brought this into fruition?
Well, one thing that happened when I was thinking about writing the What Not To
Do At Funerals book was, that so much out there about grief was either a trigger
to my own grief, or was just about grieving, or how to know you're grieving.
And, and it was, most of it was kind of down and similar to these books on
narcissism, which is now a little bit over ten percent of the population.
Hard stop, it's kind of scary.
Um, they were also about, you know, the PTSD, about, of coming out of
a relationship, how to know your, how to recognize a narcissist
and all the psychological stuff.
And they're kind of a downer too.
And I had been in two, I hate to say it, two very different type
of narcissists, uh, relationships.
And I just wanted some hands-on practical stuff.
Can you just tell me what to do?
Can you tell me how, you know, how not to buy, get an attorney?
You know, how, how maybe to get money away, what are some tangible things
that I can do a little bit at a time to regain my sense of self, to gain a
sense of control over the situation, and to kind of come to terms with,
I'm in Jumanji, I am where I am.
I am, there's, there's a predator and I am the prey.
And if I just think of it that way, maybe each step along the way will give someone
a little bit of encouragement to know they have some hands on things they can
do to kind of take their life back little at a time and not bring 'em down, or
make them feel bad, or guilty, or shamed.
And that's, uh, definitely the direction I don't wanna go.
Well, I really think you, you said ten percent, I, I, I would really
have thought it was higher than that.
Uh, we, we find ourselves being pushed into narcissism anymore, and it seems like
everyone has a touch of it in our society.
So helping people recognize this, is very important.
And especially for those breaking up and stepping back into the
world, they're vulnerable.
They may not even feel that they're vulnerable, but they are vulnerable.
They've been out of the dating scene for many, many years and
they get thrust back into it.
So there's a lot that people should consider as they reenter this dating game.
Yes, I call it rewilding yourself.
And there is, there's some, but there's some really quick ways to
find out if someone is a narcissist.
And I would, I do agree, selfishness is definitely on the rise.
Inconsideration is definitely, um, at a level I've never experienced.
And, but they may not be narcissists, you know, 'cause a narcissist
cannot, cannot do self-reflection.
Um, and so there's a, there's a few quick things you can just ask someone,
um, especially if you're dating.
Um, at that first date or that first meet, um, that will determine immediately
if they're a narcissist or not.
And by the way, speed dating is, there's more narcissists at
speed dating than any place else.
So if you wanna meet one, that's where to go.
Yeah, don't speed date.
They're the best,
they do the best at speed dating is the narcissist.
So don't, don't go there, you're, you're probably gonna get one.
Um, so there's some, there's some great ways to just very quickly
ask a couple of quick questions.
You can't say, Are you a narcissist?
But if they had gotten out of, been out of a relationship, you can
say, ask them what they learned.
How are they different from that relationship?
And they will not have learned anything.
Interesting.
That, that's big, you know?
A lot of, a lot of people that are out there talking about narcissistic
behavior, they are not identifying those traits like that and saying,
Look, this is a behavior trait that will give you a higher suspicion count on
this individual if this is happening.
So to be able to name that and just stop the grouping, because I, I
think you touched a little there, a lot of people get grouped in with
narcissists, but they don't have those identifying characteristics.
And I think what you outlined there is very important for so many podcasters and
media influencers to realize nowadays.
It's true.
I mean, you, everybody, someone might be a little narcissistic here and there,
but, uh, a true narcissist definitely has multiple, you know, internal personalities
and is definitely, is detached.
You know, there's the psychopaths and sociopaths and are, are
both narcissists and narcissist.
So they're, there's, it's definitely a kind of a disorder and they're not gonna
change and they're not gonna get better.
You know, tiger, they don't, tigers don't change their stripes kind of thing.
That's right.
So when do you suspect this to be released for publication?
Probably not till closer to the end of the year, I know it's May.
But like for four or five months, I was doing a ton of podcasts
and, um, starting to do some public speaking on, on, on this.
But I have to say, I, I've been pleasantly surprised how many folks have said,
Could you please hurry up the other book?
You know,
I can always add to it.
I can always add a chapter.
Yeah.
Well, that, that's very interesting because that really outlines what
we just said, it's on the rise of being a popular discussion topic.
So people should actually realize what their topic of discussion
really entails instead of just a few character flaws that many of us have.
So my wife outlines that a lot to me, you know, and it's really interesting.
What does she do?
Well, she, she says there's so many people out there that say that people
are narcissist, but they're really not.
It's just a character trait that they might be displaying at the time.
So this one of those things that we talk about, you know?
Do you see this?
And I think that's vital that people have that open communication about that.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, and the other, but the other point, um, like, like to your wife's
discussion is that someone can truly be a narcissist, but they're not extreme.
You know, they haven't taken their narcissism to a psychopathic level
or, um, and so there, there are those who are more extreme than others.
But they still can't answer the same questions and they're still gonna fall
to being a victim on everything that's ever happened in their lives, you know?
And they might be very covert, and poor, pitiful, poor me, uh, and the one
who's in the corner of the room, um, feeling like he's eyeing everybody out.
Or they may be the, you know, overtly and hey, you know,
like those car salesman types.
Um,
but, you know, and there's just a different approach.
One is a snake, you know, they slither and, you know, one is more loud.
So there's different type of predators out there, but those are
the ones that are definitely the, you know, the meat eaters that want
you, that are gonna take you down.
I, I've enjoyed our conversation today, Barbara.
Is there anything that we should add to the conversation?
Gosh, there's so much.
Um, I would say that this, I think other things that are, that are really
fun in the book, and I'll just say if anyone's out there and they're
interested, some, some other topics that, that, that are discussed are like what
options to say other than, I'm sorry.
There's a whole group of options you can say other than I'm sorry,
which is probably the most popular.
Because there are, even folks who are grieving who just say, please,
I don't wanna hear that anymore.
Um, I think that's probably one of the, the biggest and, just
like we discussed, ways to be the best person that you can be.
And being able to be there for someone else really makes you feel special
and makes other people know that, you know, you're a person of character.
And so even though we're talking about there are a growing amount of
narcissists out there, I think there's a few more people that wouldn't be
considered a narcissist if they had just a few little guidelines of what
to do or how to get away from folks.
It's gonna be a better world.
We'll make it better one podcast at a time.
That's what we're out here doing, Barbara.
And I, I can't say thank you enough for sharing here today.
Could you tell people how to reach out to you, get involved with
you, and how to find your book?
Sure.
Well, my, my, this book right now, What Not To Do At Funerals is on, uh, Amazon.
So they can purchase it there and download it there.
They can also go to bowheart.com, which is my business, and it discusses a
little bit more about, about my books and how to contact me at Bowheart.
And if they have any suggestions or things they would wanna make sure
that I put in the book, I would love to, for them to pass that on to me.
So at either bowheart.com, just like it sounds, bow heart, um, or
What Not To Do At Funerals, we'll get you all that information.
All right.
Well, I enjoyed our conversation today, Barbara.
Thank you for being here.
My pleasure, thank you so much.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.