And that chain is binding you to that person and they're still winning,
they're still controlling you.
So I always say to, um, people that I coach and stuff, You gotta
picture like these giant bolt cutters and you just gotta cut that.
You gotta cut that chain and move forward and look forward, not
back.
Today, we are speaking with Kimber Foster.
She is the author of Year of Thorns.
Kimber, could you please introduce yourself?
And let people know just a little more about you, please?
Hi.
Thank you so much for having me, I'm honored to be here.
Um, yeah, I am the author of Year of Thorns, What to Expect When Divorcing
A Narcissist, and I also wrote The Divorce Checklist, The Ultimate Survival
Guide to Freedom From A Narcissist.
Um, a little about me, I was married thirty years in a toxic relationship and
finally found the courage to break free.
And I took my year of struggle, it was my, essentially my journal and
I turned it into book, into a book.
And it's meant to help others.
And not only was it therapeutic for me, but it was important that I understood
what I went through so that I can move forward and help other people.
I'm so glad that you wrote things down and that gives you clarity later.
You know, it, it's really interesting.
So many people nowadays live with narcissistic people in their lives.
It's like we're breeding narcissism wherever we go anymore.
It's interesting, you say through this journey of yours, you found
seventeen common emotional manipulative,
you found seventeen common manipulative tactics
for people to be aware of about narcissistic behavior.
Could you please outline some of those for us?
Sure.
Well, when I was going through the process, I had no idea I
was married to a narcissist.
Like you said, it's become mainstream.
I call it the N word now.
But I had no idea I was married to a narcissist.
All I knew at the time was that I had lost myself, I became a
shell of the person I once was.
I felt crazy, and I was so depressed, and I knew I needed to make a change.
Um, and so I decided to get divorced and take that step.
Um, but I did keep a journal and it saved me so many times, I can't even tell you.
But it wasn't until after when I started reading information
about what a narcissist is, I realized my story wasn't unique.
It was textbook.
I even have a degree in psychology and I didn't even see it and, not until after.
Um, so I started researching and reading everything I could get my hands on.
Actually it started, my girlfriend was going through a divorce and she
said she was being verbally abused.
And I said, Well, what's that?
And she gave me this book called The Verbally Abusive Relationship,
and I said, Wow, that's me.
And so it led to the next book, the next book, and I said,
Wow, you know, I'm textbook.
My story is not unique.
So when I decided to write my book, it was driven.
I swear, like God said, You need to write this, not only
for myself, but to help others.
That I identified these manipulative tactics.
I said, Oh, that's gaslighting, or alienation, or manipulative
tactics that he used consistently.
So I went through and I put those back into my book, in my journal.
So it's kind of like I'm flipping back and forth between the past and the future.
Because I said, Oh, he did this, this, and this.
This is an example of gaslighting.
Or, you know, we moved every three years and so I was, um, didn't
have a good support base or, um, a refuge of people that I could go to.
You know, that's alienation.
Um, and any time that, um, he would do things that I would question
his behavior or say, You know, I'm hurt, he would project back on me.
There's so many things, I could go on for hours, but, um, my book is pretty
clear at giving some specific guidelines.
Yeah.
So, so how do you identify if you're in a narcissistic relationship and if you
should have a exit strategy for that?
Yeah.
Well, I didn't know.
Like I said, I had no idea I was married to a narcissist.
Um, it, I was, we were together thirty years.
And sure there were red flags along the way, but
it's, it's not something you say, Oh, you're a narcissist.
They're very controlling, they're very smart, they're very
manipulative and controlling.
And at first it starts off like a honeymoon phase, they almost morph
into what you need them to be.
And they're very good at picking on people who, or like for
me, I was a people pleaser.
Um, or people that are codependent, or kind, or, you know, people let
things go, don't set proper boundaries.
Um, so they tend to prey on that type of person.
So for me, you know, I, I saw red flags, but I let things go.
And then later on when those, when I tried to set boundaries, the narcissistic
person would just push back even harder.
So it's just, it's, it's, it, it, you know, thirty years, it's a long time.
And I was conditioned, and yeah, it was a struggle.
Well, I understand.
You know, the attachment that, that's definite, you know, after
that long.
Uh, I've been with my wife, we've been married forty years in September.
And I'll tell you, it's, it's not easy.
And there was many times that both of us wanted to put a lid on that can.
And we really fought back and we discovered our own dirt, per se.
And we, we really started uncovering how to change ourselves.
Was there any attempt by your husband or yourself to do any
of that self clearing work?
Well, he, we had, you know, as in any marriage, you have your struggles,
you have your ups and downs.
But with a narcissist and a narcissistic psychopath, they lack empathy.
They will take no accountability.
So when things got really bad, you know, I suggested we seek counseling.
Um, which we did, but it, it was futile.
Like I said, he would never take accountability.
It was more, uh, pointing fingers saying, you know, She does this, she does that.
Um, and it just was futile and it took me a while to realize that.
Um, and finally I just went out and had therapy on my own.
I knew it was never gonna work with him.
They, they won't change, they never will because there's nothing wrong with them.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's huge actually.
Uh, so one of those big key things to be mindful of is
accountability in a relationship.
If somebody's not going to be accountable, we should actually hold them accountable.
And that's tough to do at times.
But I, I know from experience when I did that with my own relationship,
things started to change and get better.
So, that, I really believe is one of those key things we should be aware
of is are you trying to be accountable for your own actions in your life?
Or even, yeah.
Or validating, validating a person's feelings.
If you say, you know, This hurt my feelings, it's not attacking someone.
But just saying, you know, Your actions hurt my feelings, or
whatever, just validating those feelings, a narcissist won't do that.
They'll say, Well, you're blowing everything out of proportion.
You are exaggerating.
They'll belittle what you're feeling.
And that's where the accountability doesn't come into play.
Yeah.
I, I, I've, I've had that play out in my own relationship, so I understand that.
And it was hard, you know, a male ego at times to say, Yeah, I am accountable, and
I, I did that, and I should change that.
Uh, I don't know why that's so hard for males to do at times, but it, it
tends to be one of those things that we have to really own up to ourselves.
And, you know, I, I don't like to put name tags or labels on the
sexes because we're definitely, both sides, are guilty of these things.
But being, being accountable and owning up to our own actions really does help
drive a relationship forward into new
territories.
And you can discover new things about yourselves when you do open up.
Have you remarried Kimber?
No, I haven't.
I've been single now for seven years.
Uh, it's been a journey.
I mean, when you leave or break free from a narcissist, you can bet they already
have another supply already set up.
But for a person that's recovering, it takes years because you've
been conditioned for so long to feel inadequate, less than.
It was a real self journey for me, learning to love myself again.
And that was a big component and the other was forgiveness.
You know, I was so resentful.
And I looked back and I was so angry, not only through the, the
divorce, which was really ugly, but you know, thirty years of abuse.
It takes a long time to get over something like that and to be able to forgive.
And, but that is really the key because as long as you hold onto that, it's
almost like you're holding a chain.
And that chain is binding you to that person and they're still winning,
they're still controlling you.
So I always say to, um, people that I coach and stuff, You gotta
picture like these giant bolt cutters and you just gotta cut that.
You gotta cut that chain and move forward and look forward, not back.
Yep.
That, that's absolutely correct.
I believe that a hundred percent.
I have a theory, it's called the Muddy Shoe Life Theory.
And
our life is like we're walking down a trail with a muddy shoe and
people, places and things, it's that heavy mud that we walked through.
And if you've walked through heavy mud, you know, it collects on your feet.
And it can get very heavy and it can tire you out.
So you have to wipe it off, get rid of the heavy mud.
The good mud stays with you.
But if you keep packing that heavy mud, your journey's going
to be long, it's gonna be arduous.
And really if you wipe it off, you're going to feel refreshed and you can
make it to the end of your journey without all of that heavy mud.
So I, I think that, yeah, uh, it's a good analogy.
Do, uh, spread it, it, it's like wildfire.
But really, it, it, we have to do that.
That stuff gets heavy.
And if, if you learn to wipe it off, which is not easy at times because of
that attachment you were talking about, uh, so yeah, when we get through life
without a bunch of worries, headaches, it can be fun, it can be exciting.
And I'm, I'm just now learning that and I'm close to sixty, so, you know,
if we can share what we've learned to the younger generation, we're
bridge builders and we can help people discover life doesn't have to be
the way that we've experienced it.
So,
That's true.
Yeah, it's really good to take no offense.
Yeah, sorry.
I just said it's really important not to take offense to everything
instead of looking at people with grace and compassion.
And it's amazing how much more free and how much lighter your heart
and your soul feel after all that.
Yes.
So yeah, lighten your load.
You, you don't have to be a people pleaser.
It, it's one of those things as we get older, we learn that pleasing
people doesn't necessarily mean we're going to please ourselves.
And that's really where joy is and that's not being narcissistic or have have
these, you know, egotistical thoughts.
It, it just means that you can be happy in your life and be free from
all of that by standing up to life.
And, and that really means when we are in one of those relationships,
we have to set boundaries.
And if we can't set boundaries, our life's not going to get better.
And, and those little things, you know, and you know through living with each
other, incrementally, things can pile up.
Don't be afraid to talk about those things that bug you.
And if, if they're not willing to really take a deep dive and try to change
that, is that relationship worth it?
I, I think that's really a lesson.
And, and, and really you, you need to be able to identify that in
order to be happy in a relationship.
Men and women are different, totally different.
And I, I know that some of the things that I do drive my wife batty and
it, it's something I don't intend to do and I never want to do it.
However, it's reciprocal.
It happens both ways.
So we have to have that empathy towards one another, and it's hard to find.
Could, could you explain the book cover to me?
Uh, I found your book cover so grabbing.
Aah.
Yeah,
I have a copy right here.
Um, I call it my Year of Thorns.
And actually I came up with the idea of the title from, do you remember
that old movie War Of The Roses?
I think it was, um, Douglas and Kathleen Turner.
And they fight and they both die in the end.
They go through a horrible divorce.
Um, it was a movie I watched during my divorce that that's what
inspired, and then, you know, my wedding ring and the two couples.
But, um, so that's where that came from.
Uh, but it's, it, it was my year of struggle.
I mean, and it's, you know, going through those thorns,
those trials and tribulations.
Um, I always say, you know, Anything that's a challenge, anything you have
to work for, is worth it because it makes it that much more valuable.
You know, my freedom now, my joy, my happiness, I had to go
through that, um, in order to be happy and find my joy again.
Yeah, but it's worth it.
And for so many people that are caught in a toxic relationship,
it's not gonna get better.
And they really need to push through that fear, the fear of the
unknown, the fear of being alone.
Um, and you, you know, you're gonna have a struggle ahead, but it's worth it.
It's, it's so worth it in the end.
Could, could you tell people about how that was for you when
you finally said, I've had enough and you broke out on your own?
Well, yeah.
Well, I had a panic attack.
It was like my body doing that fight or flight.
I never had one before in my life, but I just knew that
it was time to make a change.
Otherwise I would've died, um, either by his hand or my own.
It was bad, it was really bad.
And so I made the conscious effort to leave and get divorced, but he
wouldn't move out of the house.
And I didn't have any money or a safe place to go.
So we were in the same house for a year, um, going through a horrendous divorce.
And
I, nothing could have prepared me for what happened.
Um, and there's nothing else I could have done in hindsight either.
Um, it was bad, it was really bad.
And I hate to scare people, but when you're, you're leaving a narcissist,
their biggest fear is abandonment.
And once they know you have your foot out the door, then
you're in the discard phase.
And they will do anything in their power to take you down.
It's, you know, there's no mercy.
There's, it, it's zero empathy, zero.
Um,
I'm the one with sweat over, I'm looking for compassion.
It's a game that they have to win at all costs.
So it is kinda like a year of thrones, but a year of thorns.
Yeah.
You know, you highlighted, uh, four key tips to breaking free
from a toxic relationship, and I find these very interesting.
One, overcome fear.
Uh, two, be prepared.
I, I, I would of thought that would've been the biggest one.
But you're, you're, you're the one that went through this, so
that's very interesting to me.
Well, I had, I had, I had said something to him though about,
like years before, that I didn't feel our marriage was working and
I thought I needed a separation.
And that was the first phase of the discard phase, things got
potentially, um, worse after that.
Um, yeah.
So there are things you can do to prepare.
But when you get to that point where you are fighting for your life, sometimes
you don't have that time to prepare.
And, and you, you said you had no support network because you kept on moving.
So
how did you find the support to break away?
Well, when I initially had expressed my desire to leave, um, we were
living in a foreign country.
So I had three small children, no money of my own, it wasn't just like I could
pack up my kids and hop on a plane.
Like, where do you go?
And you know, I called the police many times.
But most of the time they didn't speak our language.
And he knew I couldn't put him in, in jail because we relied on his income.
So there was only so much I could do at the time.
Yeah.
It was, it was a struggle.
Yeah.
That's a place to be.
Uh, number three, believe in yourself.
That, that seems to be a big one, you know, to take that power step of action.
It, it really takes this leap of faith.
You know, believing in yourself.
So that tends to be
Yes.
You know, you gotta trust your gut and trust to that inner voice.
For so long he told me I was crazy for so long.
He, you know, said I was making a big deal out of everything or exaggerating.
But I knew deep down that that voice said, No, you're entitled to love and kindness,
and respect, and, um, to be cherished and treated with, like everybody should.
You just gotta listen to that inner voice.
That sometimes when you're in a controlling
relationship, it gets silented.
Yeah.
Yeah, I like that.
And the fourth one, stop telling the story of your suffering year.
I find this one very interesting and probably the most important of all.
Could you speak about that, please?
Well, you've kind of touched on it with your muddy boot story.
Um, yeah.
It's, it's about, you know, looking forward and not back.
Um,
it's, it's, if you keep talking about, Oh my God, they did this to me, and
this happened and this happened, it's almost like you're manifesting it
to keep coming back into your life.
Instead, I prefer to talk about my year of survival or, um, yeah.
And so I'm a survivor and thriver now, I'm not a victim.
There's different ways you can, you know, it's that, that inner narrative.
And I really struggled with that.
'Cause for so many years, like I said, I was conditioned.
I'm not pretty enough, and I'm not skinny enough, I was never enough.
Um, no one else will love me.
You know, and, and it's just, you gotta cut those chains and silent that narrative
and try to be more optimistic and manifest a more positive thriving survival mode.
Yeah.
Was, was there some way that helped you shift your mindset into a more
positive, constructive mindset?
It's taken me a long time, I admit it.
I went through therapy, lots of counselors.
You know, now there's so much on narcissism, so I really
resonated with more of that.
But then also, um, for me, finding God, um, bringing Him more into my life and
knowing that He loves me and, um, that I need to love myself like He does.
And just putting my, my faith in Him and my future.
So, Kimber, do you have plans of trying to find love or did the narcissistic
individual break that out of you?
Oh, no.
I loved being married.
I mean, when I look back, we had some great times.
We have three beautiful children, I lived all over the world.
I mean, I had a life that a lot of people would be envious of.
Um, you know, and I try to look at that and be thankful for that.
And I wanna have it again but I, you know, I'm a little guarded.
I am, so I'm looking.
You know, but I, like I said, I had to take time to love myself again too.
Until I was, you know, healed enough that I could be a good
partner for somebody else.
You know, that, that's very interesting.
I, I like that a lot, that statement, you know, healing yourself so you can
be a better partner for somebody else.
That, that really highlights, uh, a caring nature that you really want it to work.
So I, I find that very inspirational.
I, I wish you well on that.
Is there anything in our conversation that we haven't covered that you
would like to highlight today?
Oh, well, I would like to offer to your, um, viewers and listeners, I also
wrote this Divorce Checklist, it's the Ultimate Survival Guide to freedom.
So I found that when I was going through my divorce and we were spending so
much money on attorneys left and right.
I researched everything on the internet.
I had never been divorced, I had no idea what I was doing.
Um, it's so important to have a good source.
So this is, um, I'm gonna offer it free to your listeners.
Um, but it's just a good checklist of things that you need to cover,
things to consider, but more importantly, also if you have children.
Because the, the level of conflict between parents really affects
the children in a divorce.
And if you can eliminate that or identify a lot of the key components through
the process, or in your separation, or in your divorce decree, which is
your Holy Bible, um, it's important.
'Cause a lot of times when you're divorcing a narcissist, they'll say,
Oh, that's what child support is for.
It doesn't fall under the normal canopy of food, shelter, and clothing.
Or, um, you know, but what about sports equipment?
What about driver's training?
What about proms and weddings and all these things later on in life?
It's really important that those things are agreed upon prior to a divorce.
And so that's what this guide is.
Hopefully a little, I'd call it armor, to help you get through it.
Yeah.
You know, divorce is scary.
And you know, just to think about it, it is one of those taboo subjects for many.
And to help people that are actually going through that, that can
be a very strong tool for them.
So thank you for offering that.
Uh,
I would like to say thank you for sharing your story with us today.
You know, there are many people out there struggling and people like you are
out there helping them get through it.
So, I, I really wish you well on your journey, and I would like to invite you
back and tell us more about your story at a later date about a rekindling.
You know, because life carries on and the story is never ending.
So do you have a call to action for our listeners today?
Um,
if you're in a toxic relationship, don't let fear hold you back.
Listen to your gut and, you know, push beyond those boundaries so
that you can live a happy, joyous life that was meant for you.
Awesome.
And can you let people know how to get in touch with you?
Uh, get your book?
And anything else social you would like to share?
Yeah, so you can get, um, both my Year of Thorns and The
Divorce Checklist on Amazon.
It's available in Kindle and Audible.
Now, I wanna preface that I'm not a professional writer.
It was my journal and I wished I'd waited until like ChatGPT did or something
so it was a little more professional.
But, you know, I'm, I'm just an ordinary person, I'm just a woman who was
married for thirty years and broke free.
And I hope that by sharing my story, I can help a few people along the way.
And I have a website, it's called yearofthorns.com.
And I have a blog on there with a bunch of, um, blogs I've
written, and I've shared a lot of my other podcasts on there too.
But they can reach me there as well.
Awesome.
All right, Kimber, it's been a fascinating discussion with you.
I wanna say thank you for sharing here today on the podcast with us.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.