1 00:00:04,895 --> 00:00:07,764 To overcome, you must educate. 2 00:00:09,145 --> 00:00:15,234 Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn. 3 00:00:16,525 --> 00:00:20,625 We are all Dead America, we can all learn something. 4 00:00:21,744 --> 00:00:25,995 To learn, we must challenge what we already understand. 5 00:00:26,975 --> 00:00:30,655 The way we do that is through conversation. 6 00:00:31,875 --> 00:00:38,885 Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best 7 00:00:39,124 --> 00:00:42,045 conversations happen with ourselves. 8 00:00:43,454 --> 00:00:50,655 Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something new right now. 9 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,040 Today, we are speaking with Keeper Catran Whitney. 10 00:00:58,590 --> 00:01:02,300 He is an author, his book, Helplessness. 11 00:01:02,890 --> 00:01:06,100 This is a fascinating and riveting story. 12 00:01:06,469 --> 00:01:11,789 And I want to tell people up front, this might trigger many people. 13 00:01:11,970 --> 00:01:18,229 So grab your coffee, beverage, and let's get into this gripping tale. 14 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,434 Keeper, could you please introduce yourself and let people know just 15 00:01:23,434 --> 00:01:24,725 a little bit about you, please? 16 00:01:24,764 --> 00:01:28,384 Well, I appreciate, uh, having me here on Dead America. 17 00:01:28,845 --> 00:01:31,995 Uh, as you said, you got the name right, the pronunciation right. 18 00:01:31,995 --> 00:01:33,225 So kudos to you. 19 00:01:33,225 --> 00:01:34,234 Catran Whitney. 20 00:01:34,564 --> 00:01:40,344 I am the author of the book, Helplessness, the Emotional Health Challenges Brothers 21 00:01:40,474 --> 00:01:45,660 Experience once We Learn Our Sisters Have Been Sexually Abused By Our Parents. 22 00:01:46,370 --> 00:01:52,150 It is a brother's story in, from, in large perspective, but it's also 23 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,750 my family's story of what me and my three brothers experienced once 24 00:01:56,750 --> 00:02:01,270 we learned what happened and how we were locked out of the conversation. 25 00:02:01,270 --> 00:02:03,270 And the journey to go from helplessness 26 00:02:04,234 --> 00:02:09,274 to what is Hopefulness, which is the book I'm writing now, to Happiness, which 27 00:02:09,274 --> 00:02:11,014 will be the third book in the series. 28 00:02:11,484 --> 00:02:18,024 So you get a, you get a look inside of, of what happens. 29 00:02:18,064 --> 00:02:22,695 And so there's that exploration and you'll also get answers to what happened and 30 00:02:22,865 --> 00:02:26,804 part of the healing journey that it took for me to get through my sisters and find 31 00:02:27,675 --> 00:02:29,685 who I am as a brother in the process. 32 00:02:30,295 --> 00:02:35,704 You know, that's the very difficult part and I, up front, want to commend you 33 00:02:35,715 --> 00:02:40,564 for the journey that you've taken and it's very inspirational for many of us. 34 00:02:41,425 --> 00:02:49,104 I, I myself, I'm traversing this story per se in my own world. 35 00:02:49,765 --> 00:02:56,505 Slightly different, but the waters are navigable the same, and it's devastating. 36 00:02:57,095 --> 00:03:05,514 If, if you live within sexual abuse in any form, the story gets pretty deep quickly. 37 00:03:06,394 --> 00:03:12,144 Let's start off at the very beginning when, you know, before 38 00:03:12,185 --> 00:03:17,049 things were uncovered for you. 39 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:24,149 You were right at the doorstep of fame and fortune with your 40 00:03:24,149 --> 00:03:29,629 entire family and that must have been a great feeling at the time. 41 00:03:30,209 --> 00:03:36,859 And then you get called into this family meeting and it devastates everything. 42 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,000 Could you walk us through those early years? 43 00:03:40,315 --> 00:03:40,795 Sure. 44 00:03:41,154 --> 00:03:45,755 I come from a family of ten, four boys, four girls, my mother and my stepfather. 45 00:03:45,855 --> 00:03:49,424 Uh, my biological father, uh, my mother left him. 46 00:03:49,505 --> 00:03:54,384 Um, we lived in Portland, Oregon in my early years, so an area I imagine 47 00:03:54,404 --> 00:03:55,864 that you're pretty familiar with, Ed. 48 00:03:56,614 --> 00:04:02,935 And so, uh, we leave Portland and my mother, uh, meets this guy and 49 00:04:02,935 --> 00:04:04,565 he ends up becoming our stepfather. 50 00:04:04,605 --> 00:04:05,755 We were incredibly poor. 51 00:04:06,549 --> 00:04:10,570 I lived in twenty-one different places before I moved out, homeless three times. 52 00:04:10,570 --> 00:04:13,769 I went to eleven grade schools before I graduated high school, 53 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:16,430 my life was a constant turmoil. 54 00:04:16,890 --> 00:04:21,630 In 1971, uh, we could barely pay an eighty dollar a month rent. 55 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:26,150 And so I was used to going into the streets and getting bottles 56 00:04:26,150 --> 00:04:29,600 and turning them in for a pound of ground beef, you know, you get the 57 00:04:29,620 --> 00:04:32,730 money for those, or a bag of rice. 58 00:04:33,999 --> 00:04:37,290 Also, during 1971, The Jackson 5 were really, really big. 59 00:04:37,630 --> 00:04:39,310 I mean, they were everywhere. 60 00:04:39,319 --> 00:04:41,580 It was Who's Loving You, ABC, I want you back. 61 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:43,030 I mean, it was everywhere. 62 00:04:43,030 --> 00:04:46,820 And every little kid in the world, not just in America, wanted to be 63 00:04:46,820 --> 00:04:48,350 Michael Jackson and The Jackson 5. 64 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:53,855 My mother, absolutely, my mother, Um, who is also a great singer, 65 00:04:54,425 --> 00:04:56,745 got together with her brother and sister and they started singing. 66 00:04:56,745 --> 00:05:00,005 But as good as they were, they couldn't make enough money to make ends meet. 67 00:05:00,005 --> 00:05:04,085 So one day, she hears her kids singing around the house, singing The Jackson 5. 68 00:05:04,085 --> 00:05:06,485 And she stopped and she said, Would you guys like to sing? 69 00:05:06,595 --> 00:05:08,815 Because as a singing family, we could make more money. 70 00:05:09,365 --> 00:05:10,724 We're like, Yeah, of course. 71 00:05:11,205 --> 00:05:13,475 The next thing you know, The Whitney Family is born. 72 00:05:13,535 --> 00:05:19,030 Me, my three brothers, my four sisters, my mother, my stepfather, we are singing 73 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,870 in after hour clubs all over Los Angeles. 74 00:05:22,219 --> 00:05:26,940 My life was, at the two o'clock in the morning, get up, go to school, 75 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,480 rehearse, do it all over again. 76 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,439 One day we are singing, uh, at rehearsal and the phone 77 00:05:33,439 --> 00:05:34,540 rings and my mother says, Shh. 78 00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:38,240 And she picks up the phone and she says, Hello? 79 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:38,510 Who? 80 00:05:40,630 --> 00:05:40,659 And 81 00:05:42,850 --> 00:05:45,820 she looks at us and says, Michael Jackson's on the phone. 82 00:05:47,125 --> 00:05:52,065 Yeah, that Michael Jackson's calling our house, soon to be king of pop. 83 00:05:52,665 --> 00:05:56,264 He wants to speak to the brother directly underneath me, child number four. 84 00:05:56,305 --> 00:05:57,315 I am number two. 85 00:05:57,909 --> 00:06:00,099 My brother gets on the phone and says, Hello? 86 00:06:00,099 --> 00:06:00,909 All excited. 87 00:06:00,950 --> 00:06:01,719 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 88 00:06:01,719 --> 00:06:04,010 And hangs up the phone and then screams and says, Michael 89 00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:05,440 Jackson said he's heard of us. 90 00:06:06,140 --> 00:06:08,190 Said he's heard I sing and dance just like him. 91 00:06:08,210 --> 00:06:09,860 Keep going, we'll get there someday. 92 00:06:11,350 --> 00:06:12,210 That's 1971. 93 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,889 Jump cut to 1977, and we are everywhere. 94 00:06:16,780 --> 00:06:20,250 We're doing concerts, we're in magazines, we're doing TV shows. 95 00:06:20,750 --> 00:06:24,590 We're with United Artists Records, we have made the coveted Billboard's Top 96 00:06:24,590 --> 00:06:29,140 100 not once, not twice, but three times. 97 00:06:29,470 --> 00:06:30,730 Two singles and an album. 98 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,530 Everything Michael Jackson said is coming to fruition, 99 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,370 we are hot. 100 00:06:37,750 --> 00:06:42,680 It's also the same year Motown, who had The Jackson 5 three years earlier 101 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,320 because they had lost them to Epic Records, had just completed their 102 00:06:45,329 --> 00:06:49,680 exhaustive three year search to find the family group to replace them. 103 00:06:49,750 --> 00:06:51,440 And guess who they landed on? 104 00:06:54,010 --> 00:06:55,130 Us, we were the group. 105 00:06:55,625 --> 00:06:58,595 Where they had one lead singer, we had nine. 106 00:06:58,705 --> 00:07:01,615 My mother and all eight of us kids could lead sing. 107 00:07:01,625 --> 00:07:02,825 We all sing background. 108 00:07:02,825 --> 00:07:04,184 Me and my brothers, we all played instruments. 109 00:07:04,215 --> 00:07:05,124 We were everywhere. 110 00:07:05,595 --> 00:07:08,025 Motown had just picked us to replace them. 111 00:07:09,775 --> 00:07:12,685 So as far as I was concerned, I was about sixteen or seventeen, the bus 112 00:07:12,685 --> 00:07:16,065 was outside, the engine was warm, the seats were warm, all we had to do was 113 00:07:16,065 --> 00:07:18,345 step onto the bus and we were gone. 114 00:07:18,605 --> 00:07:23,734 No more abject poverty, no more having to depend on the record company to pay 115 00:07:23,735 --> 00:07:27,294 our rent, to feed us, to get us clothes. 116 00:07:27,860 --> 00:07:29,110 All that was done. 117 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,690 We had, we made it out of South Central L. A. at the time. 118 00:07:35,380 --> 00:07:40,000 So on a Saturday morning we have a family meeting because we know on 119 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,419 Thursday or Friday coming up, we're going to sign the largest new artist 120 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:47,030 contract Motown offered any new group. 121 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:50,250 Larger than The Jackson 5, larger than The Supremes, larger than The Four 122 00:07:50,250 --> 00:07:54,310 Tops, larger than The Temptations, larger than everyone, ever. 123 00:07:54,910 --> 00:07:56,430 TV show was already locked in. 124 00:07:56,430 --> 00:07:59,040 I have the pilot script in my office right now. 125 00:08:00,630 --> 00:08:04,160 So my sister screams upstairs, Boys, come downstairs, family meeting! 126 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,690 And we all come running downstairs. 127 00:08:06,590 --> 00:08:07,619 We are so hyped. 128 00:08:07,799 --> 00:08:11,510 This is it, we are finally out of this hell hole. 129 00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:15,329 No more going to the park to go get government cheese, to 130 00:08:15,330 --> 00:08:18,439 go get powdered milk, to go get powdered, it's, it's, it's over. 131 00:08:18,799 --> 00:08:22,629 Everything, as I said, Michael Jackson said for us to do, and 132 00:08:22,629 --> 00:08:26,005 the rewards behind it, it's today. 133 00:08:27,675 --> 00:08:33,955 I go into the living room, and when I enter, my oldest sister's pacing back 134 00:08:33,955 --> 00:08:35,074 and forth in front of the entryway. 135 00:08:35,074 --> 00:08:36,335 And she's mad, she's angry. 136 00:08:36,365 --> 00:08:38,265 Okay, she's always mad, she's angry. 137 00:08:38,275 --> 00:08:40,394 She and my mom were always at loggerheads. 138 00:08:40,435 --> 00:08:42,674 I mean, they're battling each other all the time. 139 00:08:42,674 --> 00:08:45,464 In fact, earlier that day, there was a screaming match between my 140 00:08:45,464 --> 00:08:47,555 mother and my three youngest sisters. 141 00:08:48,045 --> 00:08:49,895 I'm just thinking, It's just the girls being the girls. 142 00:08:51,265 --> 00:08:52,395 Okay, cool. 143 00:08:52,425 --> 00:08:54,425 Cause that's, that's, happened too. 144 00:08:54,425 --> 00:08:59,855 But when I walk into the living room, I look at the couch and at the far 145 00:08:59,875 --> 00:09:03,525 end are my three youngest sisters, the three youngest of us eight. 146 00:09:04,205 --> 00:09:05,735 The two youngest are twins. 147 00:09:06,935 --> 00:09:12,215 They're huddled in a corner of the couch and they're not saying 148 00:09:12,215 --> 00:09:16,235 anything, which is really strange because all they did was talk. 149 00:09:16,595 --> 00:09:20,675 They laugh, they talk, they tease, they play, that's all they did. 150 00:09:21,255 --> 00:09:25,595 It, it, it, it, that was my family, that's all we did, as close as we were. 151 00:09:27,275 --> 00:09:30,885 So I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, That's odd, they're not saying a word. 152 00:09:33,444 --> 00:09:34,135 Why? 153 00:09:35,155 --> 00:09:38,065 At the other end of the couch are my two youngest brothers. 154 00:09:40,065 --> 00:09:43,724 They're also quiet, but they're confused like I am. 155 00:09:43,724 --> 00:09:45,694 Because our sisters aren't saying anything. 156 00:09:45,695 --> 00:09:49,135 And my oldest sister is pacing back and forth across the archway like, 157 00:09:51,305 --> 00:09:52,055 okay? 158 00:09:53,775 --> 00:09:57,205 My oldest brother is standing at the far end of the couch behind my three 159 00:09:57,205 --> 00:09:59,345 youngest sisters, and I lock eyes on him. 160 00:10:02,025 --> 00:10:04,295 And we just kind of shrugged, what's the deal? 161 00:10:05,315 --> 00:10:09,265 This is going to be the happiest day of our life, everything's 162 00:10:09,265 --> 00:10:10,505 about to change for us. 163 00:10:12,235 --> 00:10:14,065 So we just kind of shrugged, Oh, okay. 164 00:10:14,895 --> 00:10:16,075 This is really strange. 165 00:10:17,130 --> 00:10:20,249 But I take my seat on the couch between my three youngest sisters and my two 166 00:10:20,249 --> 00:10:21,640 youngest brothers, and I just wait. 167 00:10:21,650 --> 00:10:24,060 And within seconds, my mother and my stepfather enter. 168 00:10:26,459 --> 00:10:31,180 We have a recliner in the living room, this brown recliner that clashes against 169 00:10:31,180 --> 00:10:34,349 this violently green, ugly carpet. 170 00:10:35,079 --> 00:10:39,709 My stepfather, who's 6'6/250 pounds and wears a huge Afro wig, puts his 171 00:10:39,709 --> 00:10:45,690 head over seven feet tall, walks and sits down in the recliner. 172 00:10:47,230 --> 00:10:54,620 But he does something really strange, he bends over and puts his hands in his face. 173 00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:58,900 And I think, Is he sick? 174 00:10:58,900 --> 00:10:58,960 Huh? 175 00:11:01,780 --> 00:11:08,140 My mother, who's usually bubbly like her eight kids, has, she's just stone faced. 176 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:12,160 She walks in and doesn't say a word. 177 00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:18,000 Walks to the far end of the living room, stands next to this large plate glass 178 00:11:18,030 --> 00:11:19,730 window that overlooked the outside. 179 00:11:20,420 --> 00:11:21,630 And she spins around, 180 00:11:23,860 --> 00:11:27,790 and she just looks, scanning the room, looking at her eight children. 181 00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:33,110 But she pauses at my oldest sister, and if looks could kill, they 182 00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:34,249 would have killed each other. 183 00:11:38,970 --> 00:11:41,360 I'm a brother, I have no idea what's happening. 184 00:11:43,130 --> 00:11:47,730 I don't have a clue, but my sisters do. 185 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:53,680 Because earlier that day, I would find out later, what they were arguing about 186 00:11:54,319 --> 00:11:58,870 is what me and my three brothers are about to learn for the very first time. 187 00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:07,340 I live in California now and we have earthquakes all the time. 188 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:11,270 In fact, we had another one this morning, we had two last week, and we 189 00:12:11,270 --> 00:12:12,720 had two or three a week before that. 190 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:18,230 Okay, earthquakes, they uproot trees, they crack bridges, they crack freeways. 191 00:12:19,669 --> 00:12:22,139 Get you some concrete, get you some nails, get you some rebar, 192 00:12:22,139 --> 00:12:26,290 top, top, top, top, top spit, gum, hammer, put it back together. 193 00:12:26,290 --> 00:12:27,050 You're on your way. 194 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:28,480 Those are material. 195 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:33,750 Emotional earthquakes are a different matter altogether. 196 00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:39,850 You do not come back from those quickly and you rarely ever 197 00:12:39,850 --> 00:12:41,779 come back from those completely. 198 00:12:42,309 --> 00:12:47,105 Because they become a part of you, they are now who you are. 199 00:12:48,895 --> 00:12:52,605 My three brothers and I are about to be hit with three emotional earthquakes, Ed. 200 00:12:52,675 --> 00:12:57,165 We are about to be hit with words no brother ever expects to hear, the words 201 00:12:57,165 --> 00:12:59,224 no brother could ever prepare for. 202 00:13:01,265 --> 00:13:04,605 My mother drops earthquake number one when she finally speaks. 203 00:13:04,614 --> 00:13:05,374 She says, 204 00:13:08,815 --> 00:13:15,045 your stepfather has been molesting your sisters for years. 205 00:13:17,845 --> 00:13:18,875 Wait, what did you say? 206 00:13:21,935 --> 00:13:24,255 He's been doing what? 207 00:13:24,925 --> 00:13:27,295 This is obviously not the meeting I'm expecting. 208 00:13:31,194 --> 00:13:34,255 I am knocked backward emotionally. 209 00:13:37,155 --> 00:13:41,045 I don't know what to do with this, I am becoming paralyzed. 210 00:13:42,444 --> 00:13:46,805 And so because it was the last thing I expected to hear and I couldn't prepare 211 00:13:46,805 --> 00:13:48,675 for it, I'm pretty slow on the uptake. 212 00:13:49,294 --> 00:13:55,715 But what I hear is apartment, I hear park, and I hear liquor store. 213 00:13:55,765 --> 00:13:57,915 But I'm dropping emotionally. 214 00:13:59,820 --> 00:14:01,300 What just happened? 215 00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:02,780 No! 216 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:07,180 And then she hits us with earthquake number three. 217 00:14:10,340 --> 00:14:16,560 She says, I have known all along. 218 00:14:18,449 --> 00:14:20,719 Wait, you've known what all along? 219 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:31,630 I imagine my three brothers are just like me, PTSD is engulfing us. 220 00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:34,940 I had no idea what PTSD was at the time. 221 00:14:36,030 --> 00:14:42,205 But the shock and disbelief and the betrayal of what we just heard, 222 00:14:42,255 --> 00:14:43,715 my mother has known all along. 223 00:14:43,715 --> 00:14:46,984 You mean to tell me you have known he has been molesting your daughters for 224 00:14:46,984 --> 00:14:49,005 years and you've done nothing about it? 225 00:14:49,005 --> 00:14:49,484 It 226 00:14:51,864 --> 00:14:56,784 turns out what my mother and sisters were arguing about earlier 227 00:14:56,784 --> 00:15:02,930 that day was they were forcing my mother to tell the boys today. 228 00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:09,830 This is the day we let the boys know what has been going on with us, what 229 00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:14,659 has been going on in this house, what has been impacting the entire family. 230 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:17,739 The deep, dark family secret. 231 00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:23,970 It went a long way to explaining my younger sisters being quiet 232 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:26,360 because they knew what was coming. 233 00:15:27,435 --> 00:15:32,295 And of course they did, because they've already been experiencing it since 1971, 234 00:15:32,325 --> 00:15:34,545 the year Michael Jackson called our house. 235 00:15:35,145 --> 00:15:39,894 When they were five and six years old is when my stepdad went after them and my 236 00:15:39,925 --> 00:15:42,730 oldest sister was about ten or eleven. 237 00:15:43,145 --> 00:15:44,364 So they already knew. 238 00:15:44,395 --> 00:15:47,914 The only people who did not know were the brothers. 239 00:15:50,655 --> 00:15:55,275 We did not know how to handle what was happening. 240 00:15:55,315 --> 00:16:02,010 But as traumatic as that was, those first two earthquakes did not 241 00:16:02,010 --> 00:16:05,440 compare to what the third one was. 242 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:11,240 Because the third one is what puts a brother in a box, it is 243 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,629 what prevents him from being a participant in the conversation. 244 00:16:17,659 --> 00:16:25,310 My oldest sister who was still angry, spins around and points a 245 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:29,350 finger at her four innocent brothers and says, You can't talk about it. 246 00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:31,150 It didn't happen to you. 247 00:16:31,150 --> 00:16:34,460 It only happened to us girls, you can't talk about it ever. 248 00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:39,660 And like that, relationships between brothers and sisters that were so tight, 249 00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:47,140 were so much fun, were so important to us, lay on the living room floor in shambles. 250 00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:51,150 My family was broken, we were lost. 251 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:56,280 I had just lost the nine most important people in my life. 252 00:16:58,910 --> 00:17:05,750 I'm a brother, I don't know what to do, I am in total free fall. 253 00:17:05,820 --> 00:17:09,599 The void is getting darker and darker and there's no way to arrest 254 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,669 the descent, I'm dropping so fast. 255 00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:15,840 And I know for sure my three other brothers as well. 256 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:22,970 Guilt is starting to settle in, self blame is starting to settle in, shame, fear, 257 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:26,849 anxiety, all of it is settling on me. 258 00:17:26,869 --> 00:17:28,800 And I don't know what to do. 259 00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:36,070 My book, Helplessness, recounts the story, and it is very, very deep. 260 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,300 It gets to be very, very dark. 261 00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:44,989 In many ways, this is the light part of the story about what happened to us. 262 00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:50,770 But I write Helplessness because I have come to learn over the years, it took 263 00:17:50,770 --> 00:17:56,690 me ten years to write it, that there are so many brothers out there who 264 00:17:56,690 --> 00:18:00,840 are not allowed to participate in the conversation once we learn what happened. 265 00:18:01,405 --> 00:18:10,445 Because once we learn what happens, every other group, the predator, those people 266 00:18:10,445 --> 00:18:14,565 who empower them, and the victims are allowed to be a part of the conversation. 267 00:18:14,575 --> 00:18:17,955 But when my oldest sister said, We can't talk about it, we 268 00:18:17,955 --> 00:18:19,355 were just told we don't matter. 269 00:18:20,545 --> 00:18:22,454 Our voices don't matter. 270 00:18:23,115 --> 00:18:28,150 You brothers, you boys, we're going to put you in a box and you have 271 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:33,180 to deal with your trauma without any questions being answered. 272 00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:35,020 There was no help coming our way. 273 00:18:36,399 --> 00:18:40,200 And so I write Helplessness to bring voice to the brothers. 274 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:44,829 And there are so many of us who learn about our sisters, but aren't 275 00:18:44,909 --> 00:18:49,070 allowed to, as I say, I mean, I pretty much say it like this, we 276 00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:53,290 are told we can't participate in the conversation, but we are expected 277 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,750 to answer for our non participation. 278 00:18:58,780 --> 00:18:59,800 So what do you do? 279 00:19:00,850 --> 00:19:08,280 How do you give a voice to a group in the family who is not allowed to participate? 280 00:19:08,889 --> 00:19:13,639 Who is put on a shelf in a closet and tucked away and the key is locked and 281 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,169 you're locked in a box and you're tossed. 282 00:19:16,769 --> 00:19:18,579 And so, this is what I do. 283 00:19:19,325 --> 00:19:23,575 I elevate the voices of brothers so we can participate in a conversation where there 284 00:19:23,575 --> 00:19:27,065 are no tools, there are no systems for us. 285 00:19:27,075 --> 00:19:31,184 For girls and for women, they can go to any library, you can go to many 286 00:19:31,184 --> 00:19:35,974 bookstores, and you will find books, you will find articles, unfortunately, you 287 00:19:35,974 --> 00:19:37,834 will find hundreds of thousands of them. 288 00:19:38,485 --> 00:19:39,775 It is unfortunate. 289 00:19:40,255 --> 00:19:44,345 And you'll get a documentary, you'll get a miniseries, you'll get a 290 00:19:44,345 --> 00:19:50,205 movie about it, you may even get a movie, or book, or miniseries 291 00:19:50,255 --> 00:19:52,355 about the Predators who do this. 292 00:19:52,735 --> 00:19:56,325 But no one ever asked the brothers, no one ever asked, Are you okay? 293 00:19:57,475 --> 00:19:58,415 Do you need to talk? 294 00:19:58,415 --> 00:20:00,085 Is there anything you need? 295 00:20:01,095 --> 00:20:03,345 We have absolutely nothing. 296 00:20:05,124 --> 00:20:10,345 And if we're going to close the loop around child sexual abuse, it 297 00:20:10,355 --> 00:20:15,205 just can't be those of us who have been sexually abused, we also have 298 00:20:15,205 --> 00:20:17,245 to look at the collateral damage. 299 00:20:18,545 --> 00:20:21,285 Oftentimes when I speak, and I know you, I know you have a bunch of 300 00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:25,825 questions, but I need to say this up front because oftentimes when I speak, 301 00:20:27,135 --> 00:20:33,504 there invariably is a woman who will say your sister's right, you can't talk 302 00:20:33,515 --> 00:20:35,195 about it, it didn't happen to you boys. 303 00:20:35,205 --> 00:20:38,305 And I share these two things, 304 00:20:40,485 --> 00:20:47,704 I understand what my sister was doing, but we are victims of this. 305 00:20:48,594 --> 00:20:51,935 One in the family has been sexually abused, the entire 306 00:20:51,935 --> 00:20:53,105 family is sexually abused. 307 00:20:53,625 --> 00:20:56,205 Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean we're not impacted. 308 00:20:57,315 --> 00:20:58,615 And they'll say, Well it was just your sisters. 309 00:20:58,615 --> 00:20:59,525 And I'll say, Okay. 310 00:21:01,625 --> 00:21:06,485 I will tell you this, my sisters were, their sexual abuse started in 1971. 311 00:21:06,495 --> 00:21:11,935 In 1965, six years before my sisters were sexually abused, my babysitter 312 00:21:12,715 --> 00:21:17,454 sexually abused me and my older brother almost daily for six months. 313 00:21:18,584 --> 00:21:21,644 So I know both sides of the sexual abuse coin. 314 00:21:21,685 --> 00:21:26,150 I understand the damage side and the collateral damage side. 315 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:32,900 And at that point, that's when the woman will say, Oh, I didn't know. 316 00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:35,149 I said, Well, no, you didn't know. 317 00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:38,750 But if we're going to get into a conversation of whose trauma is worse, 318 00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:44,840 we're not gonna get anywhere, ultimately, when it comes to solving this problem. 319 00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:52,150 We need to understand that everyone in the family has been traumatized, everyone is 320 00:21:52,150 --> 00:21:54,069 being abused, whether they know it or not. 321 00:21:54,730 --> 00:22:00,419 So, uh, this is what I do, I bring voice to brothers who are 322 00:22:00,419 --> 00:22:01,820 left out of the conversation. 323 00:22:02,689 --> 00:22:03,590 That's strong. 324 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:10,305 You know, if, if we really think about what was just said, when 325 00:22:10,305 --> 00:22:15,855 we throw a rock in a pond, those ripples, they keep going out. 326 00:22:17,195 --> 00:22:20,945 I live with a wife that was sexually abused by her father, 327 00:22:21,084 --> 00:22:25,244 and it devastated her life. 328 00:22:25,244 --> 00:22:31,095 Still to this day, we're working continually on those ripples. 329 00:22:31,625 --> 00:22:37,765 Because it's important to give voice to the victim. 330 00:22:38,150 --> 00:22:46,200 And I want to highlight, there's a lot of denial in this type of behavior. 331 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:55,600 I know from personal family experience, when my sisters brought claims, It was, 332 00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:59,970 No, you're lying, all of this denial. 333 00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,409 Did you face that within your family? 334 00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:09,030 No, we did not face denial. 335 00:23:09,390 --> 00:23:15,959 In fact, when we told aunts and uncles what was going on, there was no denial. 336 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,060 What we got was, We can't do anything about it. 337 00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:24,200 Why are you doing this to your mother? 338 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,560 Why are you doing this? 339 00:23:26,825 --> 00:23:35,125 Because they were hoping that we were going to be wealthy and rich and famous. 340 00:23:35,125 --> 00:23:41,525 And so this was going to be their chance to grab on to our shirt, our coattails. 341 00:23:41,845 --> 00:23:43,495 We didn't get that kind of denial. 342 00:23:43,995 --> 00:23:48,575 The denial of any sort was the denial of our sisters that me 343 00:23:48,575 --> 00:23:49,934 and my brothers don't matter. 344 00:23:49,935 --> 00:23:54,065 You guys are not in pain, you guys are not in trauma, you guys are not worthy of 345 00:23:54,065 --> 00:23:59,815 attention, you are not, uh, uh, uh, uh, you, you are not victimized in any way. 346 00:24:00,235 --> 00:24:07,855 And it took me a long time to, to understand why my oldest sister, 347 00:24:07,885 --> 00:24:09,335 the number three of us, did that. 348 00:24:09,335 --> 00:24:13,445 She's protecting herself and ultimately she's protecting her 349 00:24:13,485 --> 00:24:15,535 three, our three youngest sisters. 350 00:24:16,745 --> 00:24:20,995 But in the process, pushing me and my brothers to the side 351 00:24:21,334 --> 00:24:26,945 and no one addressing, or even giving us any consideration meant 352 00:24:26,975 --> 00:24:29,295 that we were left on our own. 353 00:24:29,295 --> 00:24:33,895 And I did try to find some sort of book or an article that addressed 354 00:24:33,915 --> 00:24:37,385 the needs of brothers, which, of course, there wasn't at the time. 355 00:24:37,394 --> 00:24:38,705 This is 1977. 356 00:24:40,005 --> 00:24:44,694 It hasn't been until recently that men have begun to come out, thanks 357 00:24:44,695 --> 00:24:49,904 to celebrities, be them actors or sports figures, and begin to talk 358 00:24:49,904 --> 00:24:51,754 about their direct victimhood, 359 00:24:53,015 --> 00:24:55,885 uh, when it comes to being sexually abused as a child. 360 00:24:55,915 --> 00:25:00,895 We're finally starting to have those trickles of conversations, but we 361 00:25:00,895 --> 00:25:04,855 need more of them if we're really going to address the entire situation. 362 00:25:05,285 --> 00:25:06,514 So, we didn't have that. 363 00:25:06,815 --> 00:25:15,495 My brothers and I, we were in severe confusion and crisis and we started to go 364 00:25:15,495 --> 00:25:19,505 into this state of depression and anxiety. 365 00:25:19,915 --> 00:25:28,620 I am really, really sad to hear that your wife experienced this and 366 00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:35,950 that you know what it's like to work with someone who, who, who is, not 367 00:25:35,950 --> 00:25:37,290 just close to you, but a loved one. 368 00:25:38,140 --> 00:25:39,919 Your, your, your partner. 369 00:25:40,540 --> 00:25:44,770 And try to help them navigate not only their trauma, but there's 370 00:25:44,780 --> 00:25:48,740 also a certain amount of trauma that comes your way, uh, as you're 371 00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:50,550 trying to help them sift through, 372 00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:53,199 you also got to sift through yourself as well. 373 00:25:53,199 --> 00:25:55,870 Which was part of what me and my brothers did. 374 00:25:56,090 --> 00:26:03,000 We, we, for me, part of the challenge was my protective instincts start to 375 00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:06,580 kick in and you want to do something. 376 00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:11,205 And yet we're told, Put that on pause. 377 00:26:11,355 --> 00:26:14,255 Don't do anything. 378 00:26:14,525 --> 00:26:23,185 And I, I understood it later, I mean years later, what that was about because it took 379 00:26:23,185 --> 00:26:26,275 me nine years to actually do something. 380 00:26:27,235 --> 00:26:29,905 Because my mother and my sister's, first of all, my sister said, 381 00:26:29,915 --> 00:26:30,955 Don't, don't do anything. 382 00:26:30,965 --> 00:26:34,685 You boys, we don't want you talking to anyone. 383 00:26:34,705 --> 00:26:35,855 We don't want you doing anything. 384 00:26:35,855 --> 00:26:39,595 In fact, my brothers and I, we didn't even talk to ourselves about it. 385 00:26:39,635 --> 00:26:44,094 We were just so locked down emotionally about, about it. 386 00:26:45,450 --> 00:26:48,570 And my mother saying, I will handle it. 387 00:26:48,610 --> 00:26:49,350 I will handle this. 388 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:50,360 Well, she didn't. 389 00:26:51,570 --> 00:26:56,110 And so my protective instincts, nine years later, later in 1986, three months 390 00:26:56,110 --> 00:27:02,670 before I was to get married, they kicked in big time because I could not imagine 391 00:27:02,689 --> 00:27:06,800 not handling the situation for my sisters. 392 00:27:06,899 --> 00:27:10,650 Because one of the things that I believe, Ed, is that what it means 393 00:27:10,650 --> 00:27:16,140 to be a brother with sisters is, your job is to protect their honor. 394 00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:17,600 And I hadn't done that. 395 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,779 And I know they had stopped it, but that did not mean I wasn't 396 00:27:23,789 --> 00:27:29,139 suffering self esteem blows and my self worth wasn't taking a hit. 397 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,460 You know, and granted, my mother saying that she's gonna handle this, 398 00:27:33,460 --> 00:27:36,760 and all this is in the book, I, I absolutely leave nothing behind. 399 00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:41,149 It is really a story of, about me and what I could have 400 00:27:41,150 --> 00:27:42,230 done, what I should have done. 401 00:27:43,050 --> 00:27:46,710 It is, my mother saying she's gonna handle it. 402 00:27:47,210 --> 00:27:50,019 Okay, it was a warm blanket. 403 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,390 It meant it was something that I could, okay, the girls said don't 404 00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:56,470 do anything, okay, it's on them now. 405 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,820 But as each day went by, 406 00:28:02,410 --> 00:28:07,939 I'm, I'm, and I'm seeing their faces, and it's like, Okay, you're hearing 407 00:28:07,939 --> 00:28:11,849 the whispers, how come you didn't see my tears, how come you didn't 408 00:28:11,849 --> 00:28:13,379 hear my weeping, how come, how come? 409 00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:17,070 Well, you said don't do anything, and the reason I didn't hear is 410 00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:19,080 because you were under threat. 411 00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:23,830 If you said something, he was going to hurt you so you didn't tell us. 412 00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:28,450 If you said something, he told you he was going to hurt your 413 00:28:28,450 --> 00:28:29,860 brothers so you didn't say anything. 414 00:28:31,179 --> 00:28:33,370 It is part of the web. 415 00:28:33,460 --> 00:28:38,760 And, you know, what ends up happening is when you had mentioned, 416 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,309 you know, different people and denial from other people, 417 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,600 when you've got a predator and you've gotten the power, like my mother, 418 00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:52,569 I, I, my description of it, they're in the center of this spider web and 419 00:28:52,570 --> 00:28:54,119 they're just feeding on everybody. 420 00:28:54,940 --> 00:29:00,610 And as each person who knows who could do something does nothing, the web gets 421 00:29:00,639 --> 00:29:03,359 wider and wider and wider and wider. 422 00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:06,240 And all those people who did know anything, whether they know 423 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,620 it or not, they are part of the protective detail of the predator 424 00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:12,550 because you choose to step aside. 425 00:29:14,139 --> 00:29:15,870 And they don't look at it like that. 426 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,829 They just look at it, Well, I don't want to get in your business, 427 00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:19,380 but you're in the business. 428 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,700 As soon as you learned about it, you were in the business and you let your nieces 429 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:29,630 and nephews be devoured by this predator. 430 00:29:31,685 --> 00:29:34,235 Yes, I agree 100%. 431 00:29:34,795 --> 00:29:43,755 You know, it's very interesting, my wife, because I, I was like your sister. 432 00:29:44,864 --> 00:29:51,004 I listened to an interview that you did, episode fifteen, your talk 433 00:29:51,004 --> 00:29:57,810 after forty-five, and your sister said this, I didn't want to hear it. 434 00:29:59,220 --> 00:30:03,880 That is so important for people to understand, when we shut it 435 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:10,250 off like that, so many assumptions are made, so many opinions are 436 00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:13,950 formed, and it's so dangerous. 437 00:30:14,689 --> 00:30:20,475 So stepping up when you are a victim, letting people know it's not okay, 438 00:30:20,495 --> 00:30:26,465 and I'm not okay with how you are handling this, is very important. 439 00:30:26,515 --> 00:30:34,014 For instance, my wife, she was very upset at me because I had that just shut 440 00:30:34,025 --> 00:30:40,385 up and let's not stir the pot attitude both with her family and my family. 441 00:30:40,985 --> 00:30:46,294 And it takes a strong individual to step up and say, Can't we do something? 442 00:30:47,285 --> 00:30:52,505 And that's really what we're doing here today, is we're doing something about it. 443 00:30:53,785 --> 00:31:00,565 My wife, I've helped empower her so she's writing letters to her siblings 444 00:31:00,765 --> 00:31:07,975 explaining what happened so that their children are now protected 445 00:31:07,975 --> 00:31:10,465 because the awareness is there. 446 00:31:10,865 --> 00:31:12,965 I think that is very important. 447 00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:18,845 Could you talk to us about people being aware of what is happening? 448 00:31:19,805 --> 00:31:25,275 The awareness is where our power comes from. 449 00:31:25,325 --> 00:31:32,535 It is our singular power base, it's stepping in and owning our trauma. 450 00:31:34,095 --> 00:31:39,435 And before you can make everyone else aware, you must 451 00:31:39,465 --> 00:31:42,295 be self aware of what happened. 452 00:31:42,915 --> 00:31:44,075 I'll give you an example. 453 00:31:44,835 --> 00:31:47,455 I'm in the middle of writing Helplessness, okay? 454 00:31:47,475 --> 00:31:48,705 Like I said, it took me ten years. 455 00:31:49,265 --> 00:31:54,744 And at around year seven or eight, I'm in the bed and I'm talking 456 00:31:54,745 --> 00:31:58,445 to my wife about what happened in the section that I'm writing. 457 00:32:00,085 --> 00:32:02,855 And I'm telling her, Well, this happened to this. 458 00:32:02,855 --> 00:32:05,985 I'm in the section here and it's really just giving me a problem. 459 00:32:05,985 --> 00:32:10,655 And she looks at me and she says, You know, you're a victim. 460 00:32:11,890 --> 00:32:14,650 And I looked at her and I said, No, I'm not. 461 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,930 Of course you're a victim, how can you not be a victim? 462 00:32:19,390 --> 00:32:22,520 I said, well, no, I'm just telling you what this section is about and 463 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,790 what it's, Look at you, you're a mess. 464 00:32:27,250 --> 00:32:31,249 You're sweating, you're shaking, you could hardly even talk about it. 465 00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:34,499 But, but, You're a victim. 466 00:32:35,959 --> 00:32:37,109 That is when it hit me. 467 00:32:37,299 --> 00:32:46,510 I'm fifty-seven years old and I, I didn't even recognize when my babysitter molested 468 00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:49,200 me almost daily, as me being a victim. 469 00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,180 So it wasn't until I was fifty-seven that I became aware 470 00:32:54,020 --> 00:32:56,789 of my trauma, of my victimhood. 471 00:32:56,830 --> 00:33:01,899 I, I can't even get to the place of being called a survivor unless I could first 472 00:33:01,899 --> 00:33:04,550 recognize that I'm a victim, period. 473 00:33:05,419 --> 00:33:09,110 And once you recognize you're a victim, now you can be put on 474 00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:10,980 the path to some sort of healing. 475 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:18,005 Once you do that, the next step is you must talk to someone about it. 476 00:33:18,455 --> 00:33:19,785 Ed, that's the hardest part. 477 00:33:20,155 --> 00:33:26,505 But once you talk about it, you are now aware, and you own your space, and 478 00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:31,724 you step into that space, and you just plant your feet and you do not move, and 479 00:33:31,724 --> 00:33:35,314 you tell someone, you become empowered. 480 00:33:36,410 --> 00:33:39,500 It's liberating the awareness. 481 00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:46,589 But the problem when we are not self aware first, I look at it as part 482 00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:52,370 of DNA, DNA replicates throughout our bodies all day, every day. 483 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,779 And in most ways, they replicate in ways we don't even understand. 484 00:33:56,779 --> 00:33:57,660 We don't even see it. 485 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,535 And most of the time it's good, but there are times when it's really bad. 486 00:34:02,715 --> 00:34:03,805 And you're not even aware of it. 487 00:34:04,505 --> 00:34:07,375 Emotional trauma is the same way, it's like DNA. 488 00:34:07,375 --> 00:34:09,855 It is a part of you, it is not going anywhere. 489 00:34:09,895 --> 00:34:12,945 It is part of your marrow, I like to describe, it is 490 00:34:13,025 --> 00:34:15,124 all over you, in every cell. 491 00:34:17,235 --> 00:34:21,655 And it replicates oftentimes in ways we do not understand, but 492 00:34:21,665 --> 00:34:23,285 oftentimes in ways that are dark. 493 00:34:24,535 --> 00:34:28,955 They begin to impact our relationships with our loved ones, with our 494 00:34:28,955 --> 00:34:33,155 wives, with our children, with our co workers, with our friends. 495 00:34:33,155 --> 00:34:36,534 They impact us and impact how we communicate, how we 496 00:34:36,534 --> 00:34:37,994 work, how we view the world. 497 00:34:37,994 --> 00:34:38,244 It impacts, 498 00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:42,690 and we're not always aware of that being the reason behind it. 499 00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:47,560 I had no idea that that was happening to me. 500 00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:51,359 And like I said, it wasn't until my wife mentioned that. 501 00:34:51,370 --> 00:34:59,615 But when my, when my son was born, he's, we've had multiple last names. 502 00:34:59,655 --> 00:35:04,505 My father's last name was Leary, and when my mother left town, she decided to 503 00:35:04,515 --> 00:35:07,685 give us the last name of our stepfather. 504 00:35:09,145 --> 00:35:16,975 And so my wife and I, we took her last name and we became Catran-Perrin. 505 00:35:17,775 --> 00:35:21,985 And so one day, my son comes home from school with a report card. 506 00:35:22,845 --> 00:35:26,025 And this is the awareness, because you're absolutely correct with the 507 00:35:26,035 --> 00:35:28,085 ripple effect, it becomes generational. 508 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,470 It does not slow down, it just gets wider, wider. 509 00:35:32,690 --> 00:35:36,570 And people look at a ripple and think it just goes wide, it goes deep. 510 00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:40,890 You know, though that pressure of the rock hitting the lake, 511 00:35:41,010 --> 00:35:42,850 it goes deep and it spreads. 512 00:35:43,210 --> 00:35:44,539 It's not just on the surface. 513 00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:47,509 People don't look at it as a generational thing, but that's exactly what happens. 514 00:35:47,789 --> 00:35:51,240 So my son brings home a report card and I'm looking at the last name on the 515 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:57,740 report card and I start getting mad, because I see the last name Perrin on it. 516 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:04,475 Or my favorite, for years, my favorite steak sauce was Lee and Perrin's. 517 00:36:05,485 --> 00:36:09,515 But every time I bought the steak sauce, I hated to see the name Perrin on there. 518 00:36:09,655 --> 00:36:11,805 So I would reach to the shelf and I would turn it around. 519 00:36:11,984 --> 00:36:13,425 In fact, it'd be in our pantry. 520 00:36:13,644 --> 00:36:16,205 The label would be spun around, so I didn't have to see the name 521 00:36:16,325 --> 00:36:17,555 Perrin and I didn't understand it. 522 00:36:19,845 --> 00:36:23,285 But it's, it's eating me away, it's eating away at me. 523 00:36:24,575 --> 00:36:31,394 So when I saw my son's name on the report card this one particular day, I started 524 00:36:31,394 --> 00:36:33,914 to get angry and then I stopped myself. 525 00:36:34,025 --> 00:36:39,855 Oh my goodness, I am passing this trauma down to my son. 526 00:36:41,265 --> 00:36:42,565 He has no idea. 527 00:36:44,655 --> 00:36:47,975 Even if it's minuscule, he doesn't deserve it. 528 00:36:50,865 --> 00:36:54,314 I had no idea just how this works. 529 00:36:55,055 --> 00:36:58,854 And that's part of what happens when you're talking about the impact 530 00:36:58,854 --> 00:37:01,315 and awareness of other people. 531 00:37:02,155 --> 00:37:06,625 So it's not just us, it impacts so many other people in our lives. 532 00:37:07,995 --> 00:37:11,955 You know, that's, that's such knowledge there. 533 00:37:12,354 --> 00:37:17,015 I, I really want to highlight one more important thing here, 534 00:37:17,405 --> 00:37:23,824 there's a misconception that poverty brings this behavior on. 535 00:37:25,364 --> 00:37:32,815 I don't necessarily agree with that at all, because it happens everywhere. 536 00:37:33,565 --> 00:37:35,625 What is your opinion on that? 537 00:37:36,895 --> 00:37:39,665 I have an opinion, and I have a story that illustrates that. 538 00:37:40,085 --> 00:37:43,265 You're absolutely correct, people think it has to do with poverty. 539 00:37:43,365 --> 00:37:47,365 And oftentimes people think it has to do more, this abuse takes 540 00:37:47,365 --> 00:37:48,915 place within the Black community. 541 00:37:48,915 --> 00:37:51,844 There is no other community, there's no other race in the United 542 00:37:51,844 --> 00:37:53,005 States where it happens more. 543 00:37:53,195 --> 00:37:56,205 But this crosses every race, every religion, politics. 544 00:37:56,405 --> 00:38:00,584 It crosses wealth, it crosses education, it crosses waters, it crosses 545 00:38:00,905 --> 00:38:03,805 every aspect of life on the planet. 546 00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:06,690 It crosses borders. 547 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,750 We have an epidemic of child sexual abuse. 548 00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:16,500 The greatest example that I could give anyone is my father 549 00:38:16,509 --> 00:38:19,160 in law, who I absolutely love. 550 00:38:20,359 --> 00:38:25,260 He passed away about five years ago, he passed away. 551 00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:30,379 He's ninety-five years old, ninety-six years old. 552 00:38:30,409 --> 00:38:33,300 He's white, and he's Jewish. 553 00:38:33,850 --> 00:38:35,960 We could not be more opposite. 554 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,550 He grew up on the East Coast, 555 00:38:38,550 --> 00:38:40,560 I grew up on the West Coast, West Coast. 556 00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:44,000 He grew up in a middle class family, I obviously did not. 557 00:38:44,530 --> 00:38:49,060 He created a life for he and his family I never, ever saw. 558 00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:51,680 He did incredibly well. 559 00:38:53,390 --> 00:38:56,109 And here I am, his black son in law. 560 00:38:56,570 --> 00:38:59,850 He's got a white Jewish son in law and he's got a white 561 00:38:59,909 --> 00:39:01,220 Greek Catholic son in law. 562 00:39:01,270 --> 00:39:02,590 So we're kind of all mixed up. 563 00:39:03,010 --> 00:39:03,940 It's wonderful. 564 00:39:07,130 --> 00:39:10,440 Shortly before he dies, he calls me to the house. 565 00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:15,200 I said, Okay, dad, I'll be over, I'll be, I'm on the way. 566 00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:18,260 I get to the house and I immediately recognize that my mother in law's 567 00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:21,110 not there, which is really odd because they're always together. 568 00:39:21,860 --> 00:39:23,880 But for some reason, she's not there that day. 569 00:39:24,050 --> 00:39:27,260 Dad is sitting at the dining room table, and he signals to me, 570 00:39:27,310 --> 00:39:29,140 come over, I want you to have a seat at the dining room table. 571 00:39:29,140 --> 00:39:29,700 Okay, dad. 572 00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:30,360 So I sit down. 573 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:31,170 Everything okay? 574 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:32,820 He says, Yeah. 575 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:39,430 And he looks at me, and he says, I want you to know, I understand. 576 00:39:41,790 --> 00:39:42,600 You understand? 577 00:39:43,140 --> 00:39:44,610 What, what are you talking about? 578 00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:48,950 And then he pats the book in front of him and I look down and 579 00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:51,470 there's my book, Helplessness. 580 00:39:51,590 --> 00:39:51,720 I 581 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,560 want you to know I understand. 582 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,120 You understand what? 583 00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:04,260 He says, I'm going to tell you a story. 584 00:40:05,590 --> 00:40:10,140 You cannot tell anyone until I pass away. 585 00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:15,639 I have only told one person this story in my life and that's your mother 586 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:18,310 in law and she can't tell anybody. 587 00:40:19,180 --> 00:40:21,500 After I pass away, you can share this story. 588 00:40:22,660 --> 00:40:25,550 So I sit back, where is this going? 589 00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:33,230 He says, when I was a little boy, lived in New York, Brooklyn, we 590 00:40:33,230 --> 00:40:34,430 lived in a two story apartment. 591 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,030 But there was a downstairs and an upstairs, we were downstairs and 592 00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:39,890 our best friends lived upstairs. 593 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,400 We were so close as friends, we always left our front door open. 594 00:40:44,380 --> 00:40:45,280 Both families did. 595 00:40:45,979 --> 00:40:50,699 Our kids, as little kids, you played with that family, they came downstairs, 596 00:40:50,759 --> 00:40:53,719 they come into our apartment, we go into their apartment, everyone, 597 00:40:53,729 --> 00:40:55,029 we were just one big family. 598 00:40:56,565 --> 00:40:57,345 One day, 599 00:40:59,765 --> 00:41:03,055 I went upstairs, I was sent to get something, I don't remember what it is. 600 00:41:03,085 --> 00:41:06,165 But I go into the apartment, the door is open, I just open it, and 601 00:41:06,175 --> 00:41:07,835 I walk in, and no one's there. 602 00:41:09,575 --> 00:41:12,815 So I just look around, okay, and then I hear something 603 00:41:13,424 --> 00:41:15,015 coming from one of the bedrooms. 604 00:41:17,045 --> 00:41:21,944 I walk over, and, and I'm starting to get really nervous now. 605 00:41:22,955 --> 00:41:24,275 I go, Okay. 606 00:41:26,435 --> 00:41:27,035 All right. 607 00:41:28,945 --> 00:41:32,605 And then I see a tear forming in his eye. 608 00:41:32,615 --> 00:41:34,275 I'm like, What's happening here? 609 00:41:36,265 --> 00:41:42,185 I open the door and I see the father molesting my older sister, 610 00:41:43,115 --> 00:41:44,745 and I stand in the doorway, 611 00:41:47,785 --> 00:41:50,495 and I don't know what to do. 612 00:41:50,495 --> 00:41:54,365 I turn around, and I walk back downstairs, and I don't say a word. 613 00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:57,375 I don't tell my mother, I don't tell my father. 614 00:41:57,375 --> 00:42:02,324 When my older sister comes downstairs, we don't say a word about it. 615 00:42:03,804 --> 00:42:04,824 I did nothing. 616 00:42:08,334 --> 00:42:12,034 Two months later, it happened again. 617 00:42:12,954 --> 00:42:16,855 The same thing and I did nothing. 618 00:42:19,505 --> 00:42:21,155 I want you to know I understand. 619 00:42:22,330 --> 00:42:27,540 I understand your guilt, your blame, your shame, I understand 620 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,340 the depression, the isolation. 621 00:42:30,050 --> 00:42:32,110 I didn't, I didn't tell anybody. 622 00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:42,600 I point out this story because, as you said, this happens everywhere. 623 00:42:43,990 --> 00:42:50,750 Here is my ninety-five year old father in law telling me a story that happened 624 00:42:50,750 --> 00:42:53,470 to him almost eighty years ago. 625 00:42:54,270 --> 00:43:00,135 And what I learned immediately, he wants someone to hear him. 626 00:43:01,565 --> 00:43:07,665 He wants someone at ninety-five to say it's okay, he wants someone to understand. 627 00:43:08,064 --> 00:43:15,195 He wants to unburden himself of this trauma at ninety-five years old. 628 00:43:16,585 --> 00:43:21,055 He is still in pain, he's agonizing this and his sister had already 629 00:43:21,055 --> 00:43:24,855 passed away almost fifteen years prior to him telling me this story. 630 00:43:24,855 --> 00:43:29,955 She was so freaking funny, she was hilarious, she was amazing. 631 00:43:31,094 --> 00:43:33,995 But here he is, he's, he calls me, 632 00:43:36,065 --> 00:43:39,515 his black son in law to tell the story. 633 00:43:39,875 --> 00:43:43,735 He didn't call his Jewish son in law, he didn't call his Catholic son in law, 634 00:43:44,265 --> 00:43:52,305 he called me because a relationship that was already great, became even deeper. 635 00:43:54,405 --> 00:43:55,245 Became, 636 00:43:58,835 --> 00:44:03,455 and it was more than just father in law and son in law at that point. 637 00:44:04,035 --> 00:44:08,280 We were two men who are carrying the same burden. 638 00:44:09,130 --> 00:44:11,020 He didn't talk to his sister about it. 639 00:44:11,140 --> 00:44:14,860 And he wanted to talk to his sister about it till the day he 640 00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:17,690 died, but he wasn't allowed to. 641 00:44:18,570 --> 00:44:22,329 Which was me, until around 2015, 642 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,240 when forty-five years later, I find a way to talk to my sisters. 643 00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:40,625 So, this is my best example of saying that it happens everywhere. 644 00:44:40,665 --> 00:44:45,775 East Coast, West Coast, Jewish, I grew up Baptist, more on the spiritual 645 00:44:45,775 --> 00:44:47,155 side of the world these days. 646 00:44:48,005 --> 00:44:51,705 He's well, well off, I am poor. 647 00:44:52,404 --> 00:44:54,694 Like I said, we had very little in common. 648 00:44:55,660 --> 00:44:59,940 Other than me marrying his daughter, and now we're both 649 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,240 brothers carrying this trauma. 650 00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:05,760 Yeah, that's beautiful. 651 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:13,650 You know, just to share a little, both of my sisters don't talk to me at all. 652 00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:20,065 And it's all because of this type of stuff in our family. 653 00:45:20,505 --> 00:45:29,494 And I want to let you know here today, before we wrap up that you inspired me 654 00:45:29,494 --> 00:45:37,844 today to really work hard on reaching out to those individuals before I pass away. 655 00:45:38,775 --> 00:45:45,985 Because I watched the interview today, how powerful that was. 656 00:45:46,735 --> 00:45:51,135 And, you know, I want that for my family. 657 00:45:51,865 --> 00:45:57,165 To, to watch your sisters say today when I was watching it earlier, 658 00:45:57,985 --> 00:46:00,325 You know, I never knew that. 659 00:46:01,245 --> 00:46:02,685 We just assumed. 660 00:46:05,225 --> 00:46:08,525 And I'm telling you, I feel the same way today. 661 00:46:10,065 --> 00:46:14,995 Yeah, my sisters are the ones who made it okay for me. 662 00:46:16,605 --> 00:46:21,465 I, I was going to an event on how to write a book and I knew what 663 00:46:21,465 --> 00:46:22,500 the book was I wanted to write. 664 00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:27,010 But I also knew if I'm going to write a book, uh, because this 665 00:46:27,010 --> 00:46:28,070 was a book that was targeting me. 666 00:46:28,070 --> 00:46:32,560 I was going to have to tell my sisters, I want to write a book about what we went 667 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,560 through from a brother's perspective so other men out there will know they are 668 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,589 not alone, because that's what we think. 669 00:46:38,060 --> 00:46:38,730 We are not alone. 670 00:46:38,730 --> 00:46:41,750 My father in law thought he was alone until he read my book. 671 00:46:42,770 --> 00:46:46,780 And so, I hadn't spoken to my sisters about it. 672 00:46:46,820 --> 00:46:51,189 But my second sister, I decided, I'm going to tell her I'm going 673 00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:54,510 to write this book because I don't want them to be caught off guard. 674 00:46:56,300 --> 00:46:59,219 So I go over to her house, we're standing out in front of her garage, 675 00:46:59,620 --> 00:47:02,820 and you've probably already heard it because you, uh, uh, 676 00:47:02,970 --> 00:47:05,930 watched that other podcast and heard me probably described this. 677 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,240 And I tell her, I want to write a book about our family's experience 678 00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:14,740 because I don't want our family story to be like every other family 679 00:47:14,830 --> 00:47:19,060 story, which is on the dunghill of just child sexual, sexual abuse crap. 680 00:47:19,420 --> 00:47:23,509 Our family story, as tragic as it was, can be used to help people. 681 00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:28,340 That's what I want our family story, that's what I want our legacy to be. 682 00:47:28,510 --> 00:47:30,160 It's not singing, this is it. 683 00:47:30,180 --> 00:47:32,670 We were brought together for this, not to sing. 684 00:47:33,255 --> 00:47:37,105 But I want to write a story about it and I'm telling her and from a 685 00:47:37,105 --> 00:47:39,105 brother's perspective, I'm in tears. 686 00:47:40,115 --> 00:47:42,405 I am an absolute mess. 687 00:47:43,850 --> 00:47:46,040 And she did something I did not expect. 688 00:47:46,940 --> 00:47:51,430 I'm waiting for anger, I'm waiting for hell to be unleashed on me. 689 00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:54,390 But time has a way 690 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,819 of kind of getting a different perspective. 691 00:47:59,670 --> 00:48:00,629 Oftentimes it does. 692 00:48:00,630 --> 00:48:01,710 Not always, but often. 693 00:48:02,699 --> 00:48:06,770 She looked at me and she said, Of course, you should write a book. 694 00:48:07,010 --> 00:48:08,450 All you boys should write a book. 695 00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:11,371 It's not my story, it's not us girl's story, it's your boy's story. 696 00:48:11,371 --> 00:48:12,410 But you should write a book. 697 00:48:12,450 --> 00:48:17,020 All men need to know what it is like from a brother's perspective. 698 00:48:18,620 --> 00:48:20,570 And I didn't know what to do with that. 699 00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:23,819 Because I'm waiting for her to say, Hell no, how dare you? 700 00:48:26,010 --> 00:48:32,650 But time gave her an evolution about all this and a different 701 00:48:32,650 --> 00:48:34,000 perspective on her brothers. 702 00:48:34,450 --> 00:48:39,280 And as you said, another sister who read the book said, I had no idea this 703 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:40,870 is what you boys were dealing with. 704 00:48:41,129 --> 00:48:42,850 I thought you guys just didn't care. 705 00:48:42,850 --> 00:48:44,879 And I'm like, No, you said we can't talk. 706 00:48:45,950 --> 00:48:49,220 But forty-five years later, I have great relationships with three of 707 00:48:49,220 --> 00:48:54,930 my sisters after taking the most dangerous steps in my life and calling 708 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,260 them and saying, I need to talk. 709 00:48:57,310 --> 00:49:03,530 Knowing that the wrath was going to be unleashed on me. 710 00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:07,890 And it didn't, but it was the hardest thing for me to do. 711 00:49:09,180 --> 00:49:16,490 So they are my heroes because they, they, I wasn't looking for permission, I was 712 00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:20,730 going to write it anyway, but they gave me the grace of understanding the trauma. 713 00:49:20,749 --> 00:49:22,320 They, they understood. 714 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:25,290 Yep. 715 00:49:25,660 --> 00:49:26,770 Uh, time. 716 00:49:27,150 --> 00:49:30,010 You know, everything can change in time. 717 00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:36,110 And if we really dig into ourself, we can find those perspectives that fit. 718 00:49:36,670 --> 00:49:38,240 And it's very important. 719 00:49:38,980 --> 00:49:43,030 We have very limited time, you've got another appointment. 720 00:49:43,110 --> 00:49:47,360 I could speak for hours about this with you because it's so powerful. 721 00:49:47,650 --> 00:49:52,340 It is the most important story on the internet today. 722 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,185 And I want to say thank you for sharing it here with us on the Dead America Podcast. 723 00:49:59,365 --> 00:50:03,135 Could you please tell people where they can find the book and 724 00:50:03,145 --> 00:50:05,405 how to connect with you, please? 725 00:50:06,025 --> 00:50:07,365 Well, that's gracious of you. 726 00:50:07,385 --> 00:50:08,464 Thanks for asking. 727 00:50:08,965 --> 00:50:11,695 Uh, people can find Helplessness on Amazon. 728 00:50:11,845 --> 00:50:17,630 Uh, It's, I'm being booked all over the place for it, it's a huge thing now. 729 00:50:18,030 --> 00:50:25,549 Uh, people can reach me, uh, you know, um, at my website, keepercatranwhitney.com. 730 00:50:25,570 --> 00:50:30,009 There's plenty of stuff there, free stuff, book reads, chapter reads, 731 00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:31,949 downloads, it's all sorts of stuff there. 732 00:50:32,410 --> 00:50:34,589 And if people want to reach me directly, they can reach me 733 00:50:34,589 --> 00:50:39,489 at keepercw.author@ gmail.com. 734 00:50:39,745 --> 00:50:41,945 Um, this is what I do. 735 00:50:41,985 --> 00:50:47,534 I bring a conversation for brothers and bring us into the world, uh, where we're 736 00:50:47,534 --> 00:50:49,485 oftentimes not allowed to participate. 737 00:50:50,075 --> 00:50:52,574 Keeper, thank you for doing what you do, sir. 738 00:50:54,574 --> 00:50:55,194 Thank you. 739 00:50:55,194 --> 00:50:57,785 You, you, you stay strong. 740 00:50:58,345 --> 00:51:02,155 Uh, I, I feel you and I feel your wife. 741 00:51:02,155 --> 00:51:06,610 And, um, the best that we can do, like with me and my sisters, is 742 00:51:06,610 --> 00:51:11,500 just hold on to each other and just do the best we can every day. 743 00:51:11,590 --> 00:51:15,369 Because that's what we all want, men, woman, child, boy, girl, 744 00:51:15,369 --> 00:51:16,360 we all want the same thing. 745 00:51:16,369 --> 00:51:19,860 We all want to be positive, we all want to be empowered. 746 00:51:20,420 --> 00:51:25,360 And we want to live a life of just care and understanding. 747 00:51:27,879 --> 00:51:28,779 That's awesome wisdom. 748 00:51:28,819 --> 00:51:29,019 Thank you. 749 00:51:33,635 --> 00:51:35,355 Thank you for joining us today. 750 00:51:35,945 --> 00:51:42,215 If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, 751 00:51:42,975 --> 00:51:49,355 please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another 752 00:51:49,405 --> 00:51:52,680 great episode of the Dead America Podcast. 753 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:58,430 I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.