You can think of that if you want to, or if you really don't want to.
You can think of that as claiming victimhood.
But really it's just being honest and saying, Hey, we got a big problem here
and, uh, we all gotta get together and work on this because it's eaten us alive.
Today, we are speaking with Jack Kammer.
Jack has a website, malefriendlymedia.com.
Jack, could you please introduce yourself?
Let people know just a little more about you, please.
Uh, hi Ed.
Thank you.
Well, let's see.
I am a retired social worker.
I went to social work school at the age of fifty-four, um, after I had a
career as a marketing PR/IT person.
But my hobby that, my advocation, my passion was about what I did
without getting paid for it.
And that was to be an advocate for men and boys around the
social issues of men and boys.
My first actual experience, and that was in 1983 when I started the radio show
north of Baltimore, called The Lives of Men, and it became pretty quickly clear
that there were a lot of important social issues connected to what was really going
on with men as opposed to what some people liked to pretend was going on with men.
Which was that men have it easy, being male is nothing but a privilege,
being male is nothing but an advantage, and men don't have any problems,
and if they do, it's their own fault, and men run the world, and
so stop talking about men's issues.
Only women have problems based on gender.
And I can't think of a more incorrect statement about
the human species than that.
And I just became passionately involved, passionately concerned,
more and more convinced that if we're gonna have a healthy society,
we have to be willing to say such radical things as most men are good.
Now, how do I like to say it?
Men aren't perfect, but we're great.
Women are great, but they're not perfect.
And, you know, being able to say that women aren't perfect is a little risky
sometimes, crazy as that might sound.
Uh, you know, we, we live in a, in a, a spirit of the times in which
you can get into a fight by daring to suggest that women are human and
therefore inevitably will do bad things.
Um, and, you know, if you can't talk about somebody's
flaws, you're, they're never gonna get better.
You're never gonna have a better relationship with them.
Uh, you're just gonna have to grind it out and, you know, maybe become resentful,
maybe decide to leave, maybe decide to become an alcoholic just to numb the pain
of having to deal with a person who won't admit that she ever does anything wrong.
Um, you know, to, to, to say that a woman is not perfect these
days is often called misogyny.
You know, that to, to dare to, to say that a woman is human and isn't perfect
is the equivalent, in some people's mind, as misogyny, woman hating.
And I've come to the conclusion that the greatest cause of misogyny these
days is overuse of the word misogyny for the reasons we just talked about.
You know, if you, if, if I cannot say anything that's the least bit critical
of a woman or of women in general without being called a woman hater
and shamed, and shut down and shunned, well, my feelings about that woman
are not going to magically improve.
They're gonna go underground, they're gonna fester, and
they're not gonna get better.
We're not gonna improve our relationship, we might end up
in a divorce if we're married.
Um, so we really gotta get to a better place where we approximate
the ability that women have to voice very strongly what they would
like to see men do differently.
It would be great if men felt just as empowered, just as safe, uh, that they
would be just as respected, heard, and listened to if we could say, Honey,
um, you know, there are a couple things I really would like to talk with you
about that are kind of driving me crazy.
And that can, that can often go downhill very fast.
Now it's probably gonna, it's probably gonna go off better with
your wife because, you know, she knows you and she loves you, we hope.
Then you know and love her, we hope.
But, you know, in the political sphere where we are so, so, so polarized,
you really have, it's hard to be a man and to say anything about how you
think women take advantage of things in a way that's not fair sometimes.
I mean, just that can, can cause a huge, huge problems for a man and, and huge
problems for, uh, social discourse.
So, you know, that's, that's who I am and that's where, that,
that's where I'm coming from.
We just gotta be more honest, more, uh, fair with each other about
talking about what's really true about us as flawed human beings.
We're, we're not perfect.
And we've talked a lot about men's imperfections.
We really need to get to a point where we can talk about women's
imperfections without being mean about it.
Yeah.
Jack, it's very important what you're saying.
And my wife and I, we had a very healthy conversation before we,
we got on here today to have this conversation because it's, it's
one of those needed conversations.
We are damaged as a society and it's, it's really urgent
that we address these things.
So my first question is, Why don't you have a podcast?
The honest answer, Ed, is because
it's a lot of work.
I did do a podcast.
Yes, and you know, you know very well how much work it is.
And I did do a podcast for a while, but I didn't find it
very fulfilling, um, compared to the amount of work it required.
And, you know, it's probably got something to do with the fact that,
you know, like a lot of passionate people, I think I've got some,
some important ideas that I want to convey, that I want to get out there.
And when you're a podcast host and you have people coming in from
all directions, it's your duty to help them tell their story.
And lots of times my guests just didn't seem like they really had a
whole lot new or important to say.
And so I was doing all this work so they could say what they wanted
to say and it's like, Yeah, but you're really missing the point.
Now I understand that that's kind of egotistical, but you know, that's,
that's where I am, that's where I am.
I've been doing this since 1983 and you know, I sort of am at the point
where I think I, I do have some, some expertise in these issues.
Uh, I've considered them fairly, fully, uh, I've been through a lot of different
ideas, a lot of different points of view.
Sometimes I've been optimistic, sometimes I've been pessimistic.
Sometimes I think women are really great, and sometimes I think women really aren't
so great the way they're treating men.
So, I sort of, uh, I, I, I don't have a podcast 'cause
I'm, I'm not as nice as you are.
No.
Now I, I don't believe that, Jack.
But anyway, that's for another debate.
You know, we, we are definitely hurting and it is crucial that we
have conversations like this no matter who hosts the conversation.
And, and you are correct, it is to highlight the guest.
And, and that's what we do here on the Dead America Podcast.
And that's why I really am going to enjoy today's conversation because
it's one of those conversations that I'm passionate about.
I think we are broken.
We're not polarized, we're just smashed.
And sometimes you have to be smashed into rubble to be able to form
yourself into this concrete block.
And I think that's where we are with relationship, men and women.
Uh, there is no man versus woman, it's human beings.
And I think we all forgot that, men and women, how we treat each other
with respect, and dignity, and honor.
This is really hurting, not only America, but the world because
everybody looks on to America as the so-called leader of the world.
And I think we're shamed there at the current moment also.
So it's really about being truthful, forthright, and yes,
telling it how you see it.
Because if we don't understand each other and how we actually see
these problems, there's no way out.
So it's critical that we understand we are broken and women have just
as much right as men to feel broken.
And we, both sexes, need to understand that and come together
to form that concrete now.
What do you think about that, Jack?
I think that's great.
I love your metaphor about having to break, uh, break things down to
rubble sometimes to be able to reform them in a, in a, a new shape and a,
and a usable block for the building of, uh, a new and improved society.
I agree with, I, I like, I like the way you put that.
I think, I think you're right.
Yeah.
So, so our relationships are broken, Jack.
How do we approach this problem other than podcasting?
How do we approach the problem with a rational approach?
Well, that's, that's a great question.
I think the first thing to say about how we do it is that we think in terms of
ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years.
I think that's how deep this goes.
You know, the, the women's movement started late fifties, maybe some
people even traced it to the forties with Rosie the Riveter.
Forties, fifties, sixties.
In 1963 Betty Friedan published her book, The Feminine Mystique.
That's often regarded as the, the, the starting point for the current
brand of feminism, which I think Betty Friedan would not be happy with, to
see what has happened to her ideas.
Um, her book was not an, it was not anti-male at all.
She talked about a lot of things that she doesn't like that men think about
women, but she didn't blame men.
She pointed to the culture, you know, the ideas that we are raised with.
She wasn't mean about it.
She, she actually was pretty sympathetic to the fact that life
was, well, she wrote a book about the difficulties that women were having.
Um, but in her book, she included recognition that it
wasn't a picnic for men either.
She, she even pointed out in her book, approvingly, a magazine article in Red
Book Magazine, a very influential women's magazine in, I think it was April of 1962,
and the, the, the title of the article was Why Young Husbands Feel Trapped.
And this is Betty Friedan, the woman who pretty much launched the current
wave of feminism, was one of the co-founders of the National Organization
for Women, was the first president of the National Organization for Women.
Very strong woman's advocate, but not a detractor of men.
And in the 1980s, about, uh, seventeen to twenty some years after she, she
wrote her book, she wrote, she was basically a magazine writer in her
early career, she got an article into Red Book Magazine herself that said,
the dialogue has gone on too long in terms of women alone, let men join
women at the center of the second stage.
She was saying, We really need to hear from men here.
I think the biggest mistake that the women's movement made, and, uh, and
you can't trace this to Betty Friedan because she didn't do this, but in
the late sixties, about six years after Betty Friedan published The
Feminine Mystique, a group of women in New York called The Red Stockings,
published The Red Stockings Manifesto.
Now I can't prove this, but it certainly is plausible.
It makes sense, it, all the pieces fit.
When Betty Friedan published The Feminine Mystique, it was about how women
needed more opportunity in their lives.
Many women, uh, interviewed and, uh, polled for Betty Friedan's book
were college educated women and they liked being mothers, they liked being
important to their families, they love their husbands, but too much
of any good thing is a bad thing.
And the problem that had no name, as Betty Friedan called it, was
that there were women who wanted to do more than be at home, taking
care of kids, running a house.
Women wanted to be lawyers, doctors, women wanna be astronauts, soldiers, CEOs.
And
you know, it was a shame all those years that we wasted all of that talent.
Uh, but we did.
And at the same time that Betty Friedan was talking about what
women needed, she also recognized that it wasn't a picnic for men.
And I'm old enough to remember that back in the early days of the women's movement,
a lot of men were sort of excited about what Betty Friedan was talking about.
Because it occurred to us that it was gonna be good for us in
at least two very important ways.
One, as women made money in their own jobs, the pressure on men to make all of
the families' money would be lessened.
And that's one of the hugest disadvantages of being a traditional
male, you're making the money and all of the pressure is on you.
And if the kids don't have the money for the braces they need, or the new
shoes, or to go to a good school, you know, that's sort of on the man
for, for not being a good provider.
So number one, less pressure on men to make money.
Number two, if anybody had asked, would've been that a lot of men would've said,
Yeah, you know, something else that we would really like if we're really going
to pursue this idea of gender equality and not pigeonholing men into one space
and women into another, just by virtue of their sex, another thing we'd really
like as men would be, we'd really like to have more time to get to know our kids.
We don't want to be working forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty hours a
week full time with all this pressure on us and coming home tired and grumpy.
We wanna have better relationships with our kids.
Women want to be equal in, in the world of business,
we would like to be equal in the world of the family.
That's what we would like.
So when men started talking about that, women who were thinking of becoming
feminists and joining the women's movement sort of had some second thoughts.
And a lot of women were kind of hesitant about this women's movement thing because
this women's movement thing, this women's lib idea, well, we like part of it, we
want, we wanna have more opportunities for ourselves, but we're not really
interested in giving up what we have.
Of being the CEOs of the family, and, and the main person in the family,
and the, the person who has the primary relationship with the kids.
We don't wanna give that up.
We wanna, we wanna get, but that we're not so interested in giving.
Well, that presented the problem for the women's movement.
How can you be talking about fairness and equality between the
sexes when you're only interested, interested in hearing about and
working on the problems of one sex?
So how did they, how did the, the women's movement justify not paying any attention
to this crazy idea men had about being less responsible for making money and
for being more involved in the family sphere, which has previously, up till now,
been the, the primary domain of women?
Well, the way they justified not listening to men was with this,
uh, Red Stockings Manifesto.
Which said, in part, women are oppressed,
our oppression is total.
It actually said that.
Women's oppression is total.
We identify men as the agents of our oppression.
So if you can get that idea, which they did into the media, whole hog, media
ate it up, uh, get it into policymaking and government, if you can get it
into academia and the social sciences, if you can get that idea accepted
uncritically that men are oppressors and women are oppressed, well, then
the oppressed women don't need to ask the oppressors, What would you like?
You get to treat 'em any way you want, including killing them,
annihilating them, banishing them.
That's pretty much where we are.
Men are not listened to.
We, nobody's asking, What do you need?
What would you like?
What would, what would a gender equal world look like to you?
No, we are not part of the solution.
We are the problem.
And it's not working to operate on the idea that only one sex is ever sexist and
only one sex is ever harmed by sexism.
It's not working.
And so how do we, how do, I think you, I started this answer with your question
of how do we, what do we do, right?
Um, what, what we do is, well,
the easy, the easy part actually, I think is, to ask fair-minded women, not
the squeaky wheels, not the ones who really hate men and really think men are
oppressors and women have been oppressed, but to ask the really equal minded,
fair-minded, honorable women who love men, love their husbands, love their sons,
love their brothers, love their uncles, love men in general, appreciate men.
To call upon, encourage, plead, perhaps, with those kind of women to
just stand up for us when you can.
Like if you're out with your girlfriends after work, let's say, and you know,
three or four of them start, start harping on some terrible thing about
men, and it's very sweeping and over generalized and just not very based in
context, or understanding, or empathy, or anything, it would be great if
women who appreciate men were to say something like, Ladies, um, you
know, we've talked a lot about how men are sexist and, and how sexism is
so harmful to the targets of sexism.
Uh, we certainly talk about how we have been, we as women have been
harmed by men's sexism against us.
But listen to us, listen to us.
We're doing the same thing, we gotta stop this.
We really need to respect men, ask men what's going on with them.
Treat them as stakeholders.
We talk about diversity and inclusion.
I mean, come on.
We've excluded men for fifty years in this discussion of how we're
gonna refabricate our society along gender fair, gender equal lines.
We gotta stop this.
That's the easy part, asking women to stand up because I think women are
sort of more courageous in this topic.
The hard part is going to be getting men to say anything, and
there's lots of reasons for that.
It's almost like we are in exactly the wrong spot to be able to
say anything about this because, you know, the last thing a man
wants to, to, to be is a whiner.
Men don't like to whine,
men don't, men don't like to complain.
Men like to see a problem and solve the problem.
And if they're, you know, real macho guys, they're not gonna
admit that there's any problem that they can't solve on their own.
Because a macho guy says, Ah, if I got a problem, I fix it.
And if somebody gives me a hard time, I kick 'em in the ass
and I take care of it myself.
Well, you can't, you know, very well as a, as a honorable man, you know, kick the ass
of a woman who's given you a hard time.
So, you know, that's a problem right there.
Um, men do not want to be viewed as claiming to be victims of any kind.
Oh, now men are victims too.
And that's an honorable thing, men don't want to be seen as victims.
We don't want to complain that we're victims.
But you know, the truth of the matter is sometimes there are bigger problems
than you can solve that are adversely affecting you, the people you love
and care about, and your society.
You can think of that if you want to, or if you really don't want to.
You can think of that as claiming victimhood.
But really it's just being honest and saying, Hey, we got a big problem here
and, uh, we all gotta get together and work on this because it's eaten us alive.
So
men do not want to complain, we don't wanna whine.
One of the things that is very big in male culture, and I think it's probably
to a different degree, or at least in a different direction with female
culture, is that what makes a man, a man?
In many ways, and I don't, I don't mean to give a prescription of what a real
man is, 'cause I, I do have a definition that's very much at odds with this.
But one of the things that's very big in male culture that many men subscribe
to is, that a good and honorable man is a man who gives more than he takes.
He gives more than he takes.
But
one of the things we need to ask men to keep in mind is what the flight
attendant tells you at the beginning of every flight about what you should
do if you're sitting next to your kid and the oxygen mask comes down.
You, you've been on a jet, you've been on a jet liner?
Put yours on first.
Why?
Why do you put yours on first?
Why, why do they want you to do that?
Yeah, of course.
You're no good if you're rendered useless so make sure that
you can survive to carry on.
Worry about yourself, and then others.
And, and its true principle.
Yes.
And so we can ask men to overcome their reticence about putting themself first
in line in terms of what's needed right now to recognize that, you know, if
you're not functioning well, you're no good to the people you care about.
You gotta take something.
You, you gotta, you gotta have some resources to be alive.
And you know, with that in mind,
it would be good if men started talking about what we need and how we're
really sort of like waiting to inhale.
You know, we need some oxygen.
And, and that oxygen isn't just O2, it's not just the gas.
It's appreciation, respect, caring, empathy, all of these things that
sort of used to be much more abundant in the culture than they are now,
especially across gender lines.
So that's how I think we started.
Be patient, it's not gonna happen overnight.
It's gonna take decades.
And to start small, start humble, don't get angry if you can avoid it.
Understand if you feel angry, what do you really feel before anger jumps in?
What you really might feel is sad, afraid, frustrated, alone, insecure,
and talk about those things.
You know, like you say to your buddies, You know, I, look, I'm really worried
about my kids and my grandkids.
You guys worry about that?
Do you, do you think that we as men are, are being as helpful in
this society as we, as we'd like to be and making things better?
You know, um, and I think a lot of men would say, Uh, no.
And then, you know, the whole idea of men being together is suspect these days.
The Pew Research Center recently did a, released a study that shows that
people are far more suspicious of men getting together in male only groups
than they are about women getting together in female only groups.
Very much related to that research is research that shows that with all
of the talk we've had over the past several years about implicit bias,
at least one study found, a peer reviewed, peer reviewed, uh, piece of
research, at least one article found that the strongest and deepest implicit
bias is not against blacks, it's not against any other ethnic group, it's
not against women, the strongest implicit bias of all is against men.
It's against men.
And
so, you know, what does, what does that mean when men want to get together as
men, you know, to go bowling, or to sit and have a few beers, or to, you
know, just to sort of talk about our grandkids, or whatever it is, just to
get to know each other and, and bond?
Oh, what are they doing?
What are those men doing?
What are they talking about?
It's the patriarchy, we gotta smash the patriarchy.
They're oppressors.
You know, we, we gotta get over that and say, No, actually, we went bowling and
we got to know each other a little bit.
And a couple fellows showed me pictures of their grandkids and I
showed 'em pictures of my grandkids.
And it was really fun and I can't wait to go back next week.
And that's an important thing too, right there.
Some, some men will feel, um, especially in light of research that shows that men,
more than women these days, are saying they don't spend enough time with their
kids, some men will feel that when they have any spare time, they really should be
with their families and with their kids.
But again, men need a little bit of oxygen from outside the family.
And so taking two or three hours per week to be with a group of men
is not being selfish to your family.
It's grabbing that oxygen mask, getting what you need so that when
you go home, you're feeling good, strong, kind, loving, patient.
And when I was doing a podcast, I had a guest on, his name was Jim Ellis,
recently deceased, who was an advocate, was a, a, a member, very active
member of a group, I, I don't think I remember the name exactly, something
about Motivate, inspire and something.
Um, but we talked about this on our podcast, that, what, what,
do women ever say, Why are you spending time with those men?
He said, Ask my wife.
When I come home from a meeting, from my weekly meeting with this group of men,
I am so full of energy, I'm so pumped up, I'm so happy, I am so alive that she
wants me to never miss that meeting any week.
It's good for the man, it's good for the relationship,
it's good for the woman, it's good for the kids, it's good for the family.
You extend that out, it's good for the community for men to not listen to all
of the male bashings that's, that's out there in our culture right now.
Who needs men?
It's the end of men.
Men are clueless, men are sex crazed, men just want to drink beer and watch sports.
Men are, they can't multitask, you know, all of that stuff.
Men are slobs, all of that stuff.
Men are oppressors, men are violent.
You know, if, if, if you, if you are immersed in that thinking
about a group of people, do you wanna go hang out with them?
No.
Why would I want to go hang out with a bunch of people who oppress other people?
But that's, that's the brand, that's the reputation of men these days.
Now, we, we mentioned the, the women who are honorable and really care about men.
We gotta recognize that there are many women
who are not honorable about men, who blame all of their unhappiness on men.
Some of which might be well placed, because who knows what happened to
them in, you know, in, when they were young, in their families, at school.
Who knows, who knows what happened.
But there are also many women whose job, who get paid pretty well by
organizations, nonprofit organizations funded by the big philanthropies,
The Ford Foundation, The Rockefeller Foundation, by the federal government,
um, professional feminists whose job is to do everything they can to make sure
that the focus stays on women as having problems and men as causing problems.
And that is really corrosive, it's really corrosive.
Well, well, you know, Jack, that, that tells me right there, there's
a, a challenge or a war being placed on the natural order of things.
There's always been a natural order to men and women, and traditionally.
But besides the traditional roles, it's a natural order that
those roles have been based on.
And there has been this big blunt, blatant attack on that natural order.
And I've, I've kind of witnessed this for, you know, my whole life, and, you
know, I'm, I'm about to turn sixty.
So there's, there's this, you know, war that's been brewing and building
over this long period of time, and it's got this pendulum effect.
And as we react and they react, the pendulum keeps swinging back and forth.
What I see is it's gonna take the strength of men in that natural order
to grab the pendulum and stop the pendulum from going back and forth,
and that will help restore a balance.
And that bickering back and forth that you were talking about, is a
big, big deal about all of that.
Ed, I understand what you're saying.
I wanna present to you some different thinking about that.
I, I under, I understand what you're saying, I respect it.
And, and you are thinking about what do we need to do to, to stop this craziness.
When you talk about the natural order, what I hear, what I think
of, is the primitive order.
The primitive order when we were, when we were a small band of human
beings walking across the grasslands of the Serengeti in Africa.
Very vulnerable to being made extinct by having a saber tooth
tiger jump out of the, I don't know, the grasses, or the jungle, or
whatever's there, and, and eating us.
Yeah.
Well, the Serengeti's grasslands.
Yeah.
So, um, you know, and when we were, when we were vulnerable, when we were
living very primitively, we had to take every opportunity to eek out
every bit of efficiency we could to ensure that we survived until tomorrow.
So what that meant was, and this is where natural order sort of
plays into what you're saying,
we said, Okay, we have babies here, these babies are important
for the survival of the species.
The woman has the breasts,
I've got the bigger muscles, I'm the man, I've got the bigger muscles.
So it's not the natural order yet 'cause we haven't started it.
But the smart thing for us to do is to have you be in charge of the
babies and I'll be in charge of keeping the saber tooth tigers at bay.
As we became more and more civilized and we started having things like
laws and customs, and taboos, and constables and jails and you know, as
we became more civilized and had more rules about what's gonna be acceptable
among human beings and what's not,
we still kept those primitive ideas of what women needed to
do and what men needed to do.
Now in the forties, and fifties, and sixties, a lot of women didn't need
to always have a baby on their hip.
The kids could have been at school, right?
Um,
so, so
as civilization became more and more developed, it became more and more
possible for us to not have to be so specialized in the idea that women are
taking care of the kids and the men are taking care of everything on the outside.
For instance, I mean, would you, would you agree or would you not agree, how do you
feel about women wanting to be doctors?
Is that okay with you or is that a violation of the natural order?
No, that's perfectly fine with me.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, in the 1890s, I've read the diaries of various pioneering women
who dared to say to their families, especially their fathers, um,
I, I, I'm not, no, I don't wanna, I don't wanna marry John from the, you
know, mercantile exchange even though you think I should, I want to be a doctor.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's, no, no.
Or even worse than a doctor, I wanna be a lawyer.
Oh my God, you want to turn your back on, on your natural God-given
place in life?
You, a woman who's supposed to be all about loving and caring, and listening,
and making people happy and feel good, and trying to patch up, uh, disagreements.
You wanna give all that up and become a lawyer and argue
all day and get paid for it?
What kind of a woman are you?
That's, there might be something wrong with you.
And so the, the pioneering women had to get over that and
they have gotten way over that.
Lots of women are great doctors, lots of women are great lawyers, lots of
women are great politicians, great scientists, great business people.
We got over all of those stereotypes.
The problem is, I think that with all of that success that women have wrought for
themselves, following Betty Friedan's book about how women need to have more options,
men have far, still today have far fewer options to achieve what we
were thinking we might get from this idea of overcoming sexist stereotypes
and, and rigid gender roles.
Now I know it's true that there are more and more men who are getting
into the formerly female domain, and we have full-time fathers now.
Full-time fathers who stay home, take care of the kids.
When I see them at the playground, I ask them, How do you like the fatherhood gig?
And they say two things.
Almost always, they say two things.
They'll say, I love it.
But then they immediately follow with, It's a lot of work.
And then I respond with, Well, well, when you were working, that
was a lot of work too, wasn't it?
And they smile and they laugh and they say, Yeah, I guess that was too.
So there are people who look at those guys and sort of treat them the
way, in the late 1800's, we treated women who didn't wanna stay home
and they wanted to become lawyers.
Here's this guy who was a lawyer, hated it, hated it, but really
likes teaching, working with, being a primary influence on his kids.
And not only that, he's married to that lawyer, or her great granddaughter,
he's, and they rely on each other.
She can go and do her job, become, work to become a partner in
six years in the big law firm.
But she needs to know that the kids are safe and the kids are okay.
She doesn't have to always be thinking and worrying about the kids.
Joe's got it.
And I know Joe loves those kids, and I know he is a great man and a smart guy,
and I love him and I don't have to worry.
And it works, it works.
Now that's, that's the hundred percent, a hundred percent proposition.
There's a bazillion different combinations you can have of that.
You know, where not every woman who wants to be a lawyer wants to make partner.
A woman who wants to be a lawyer might wanna just, you know, sort
of, you know, give it 50%, the other 50%, she wants to be the mom.
All kinds of permutations of that.
But the problem is that when we think about work/life balance at the law firm,
we're thinking about policies toward women who need to take time off from
work to go and take care of the kids.
We don't think at all about policies for the male lawyers who would
love to take some time off so they can go and take care of the kids.
So really, what is this, this is all about, this is all about
changing the natural order.
I mean, the natural order is, the essence of the natural order
is that parents love their kids, mothers and fathers love their kids.
And the natural order is that they're, that they're human beings
and they're smart, and they can think about what's the best way to do this.
And they can do all kinds of things.
So this, this could be considered reinventing yourselves.
Women reinvented themselves by saying, We're not gonna just be
mothers and stay at home all day.
We love that.
But that's, we want, we want other things too.
We, women reinvented themselves as astronauts, and soldiers,
and politicians, and doctors, and lawyers, that's wonderful.
We need men to be able to reinvent themselves, and it's perfectly
understandable that we need, that men need to reinvent themselves.
Because look at how their traditional role has been made pretty much
impossible or very, very difficult these days with the fact that many
blue collar jobs, many manufacturing jobs, many jobs for which a high school
diploma was a ticket to a good life,
the economy of men's occupations has really changed strongly, even drastically.
So let's, let's talk about reinvention a little bit.
Back in the beginning days of IBM, the corporation,
IBM's main business was to make big computers.
I think they had a nickname like Big Metal, or Big Iron,
or something like that.
And they were doing really well making physical computers,
you know, as big as a room.
But as computers advanced, and advanced, and advanced, became smaller, and smaller,
and smaller, and more and more companies came into that space with innovations
about how to make computers better, less expensive, different technologies.
Big Blue, IBM said, Whoa, things have really changed for us, our business model.
What are we gonna do?
We keep this up, we're gonna be out of business.
What they did was they reinvented themselves.
A bunch of smart executives said, All right.
What are the two main components of the, of, of a computer that's doing good work?
Well, we've been working on one, the iron, the machine, but
it's nothing without software.
It's nothing.
Without networking, we're gonna become, we're gonna reinvent ourselves as a
software and computer services company.
Reinvented themselves, it worked, and they've been thriving.
Similarly, I know it's a big, it's a big jolt to a lot of men's thinking.
Although I think underneath they might be thinking, Woo, I
would kind of like to try that.
Men reinvent themselves.
Take the, take their, take their essential components, what are
all the good things about men?
And apply them to running a house with a bunch of kids.
Raising the kids, uh, helping the kids learn how to be good people.
I used to work for National Fatherhood Initiative and at NFI,
we had a word that we made up.
I didn't make it up, it was there before I got there.
It was, it's firmth.
The word is firmth.
And, and NFI used to talk about it as a characteristic and a
quality that men, especially, were able to provide for their kids.
Firmth is a combination of firmness and warmth.
And if you think about, you know, a really, if you think about a
really good dad, the kind of dad we would all like to have, he's firm
with you but he's warm with you.
And he's not shaming you and he's not out of control.
He's saying, Look, you, you did this and here's why that's not good.
Here's why you shouldn't do it again.
I asked you not to do it, and so you did it anyhow.
Well, I, you, there's gonna be some consequences for your disobeying
me and here's the consequences.
But I still love you, and you're still a great kid, and I'm just
trying to help make you greater, and greater, and greater.
So that when you grow up, you can make my grandkids as good
as I'm trying to make you,
you know?
And so it's, when, when we think of being a mother now, we think of everything being
sort of pink and frilly and kind and nice.
And I mean, look, women invented participation trophies, right?
Isn't that the kind of thing women do?
You know, participation trophies didn't come from out of a man's imagination.
It wasn't so important that every kid feel like a star.
No, you're not a star in soccer, but you know, you're gonna
be a star playing the drums.
I can see it.
What'd we, what do you, how do you wanna do that, you know?
Um,
being a father, it is a very essentially male masculine thing when it's done right.
And there's a lot of joy and opportunity there for men to reinvent
themselves for this new economy.
And again, it doesn't have to be a hundred percent.
He's taking care of kids.
There's lots of opportunities for side hustles, side gigs for the
man to also be making a little bit of money, but still being able
to be the primary parent at home.
That's what I think needs to happen.
Not every woman, however this is, this is, this is where it gets, you
know, a little bit less than ideal.
We've talked so far about the woman who is a great lawyer and wants to be the,
wants to be a partner in six years, and the, the husband who's really digging the
idea of being a nurturing parent at home.
And so she loves that idea of letting him have primary, uh, influence at home.
The truth of the matter is that not every woman has a fabulous career
and not every woman therefore is interested in sharing or turning over
to a man, her role as the mother.
Many women just have jobs, they just have jobs.
And they're not so thrilled about the idea of having their husband
take half of their job or sharing the CEO suite in the family.
These women are watching the clock nine to five every day.
They can't wait to get the hell outta there, they wanna get home.
Why do they wanna get home?
Because home is where the heart is, that's where their love is.
And so they're not so interested in having this guy be there equal.
Even further along this point, there are many women who don't even have
jobs other than to be a mother.
And you know, those women are really not interested in letting
the fathers of their kids
share.
Certainly not gonna let 'em have primary influence over the
kids, but is gonna be very, very reluctant to even share it 50/50.
I'm the mother, you'll hear them say, I'm the mother,
where's the money?
Where's the money?
You are a sorry excuse for a man.
Where's the money?
And the guy is thinking, Well, I don't, I don't happen to
be very good at making money.
But these kids and I have great times when we're together.
And I'm reading them stories, and playing games with them, and teaching
them various things, it's working.
So maybe you should get out there and make some money, you know?
Um, that's, you know, that's my, that's my view of what would be a lot happier and
healthier, uh, society with men and, men and women both treating each other fairly.
We men have given up the idea that we should be in total control of the economy.
We need to ask women to get over the idea that they need to be in total
control, top dog, CEO, in the family.
It's gotta be shared, and if it can be shared, we don't have to worry
about who gets what slice of the pie.
We don't have to worry about that one pie.
If we're treating each other fairly and we have a good relationship, we have synergy.
It's not just one plus one equals two, it's one plus one equals infinity.
And we don't have to worry about one pie, we can create a whole bakery.
We can make all the pies we want because we're working together.
We love each other, we're cooperating, we're trying to optimize.
The sky's the limit.
You know, we're not locked into this one little equation
of one plus one equals two.
So, um, so the way I see it is that the rate limiting step right here
is women's willingness to share.
Nobody gives up power for nothing, but smart people will share it.
That's, that's the key right there.
I, I, I really believe that, Jack.
You know, the, the more that we can transition into a sharing
world, the better for all of us.
You know, the toy box is full of toys.
We can all share the toys.
It's, it's fabulous if we just let people create their own lives.
And I, I really believe that's what the essence of what
you're saying is all about.
You have to let people decide what they are.
So,
Yes, that's a, that's a great way to put it.
I love that idea of the, of the toy box full of toys.
Yes.
It's like unlimited potential.
Yeah, Yeah.
It's, it's, that's right.
Life is what you wanna make it so get out there and build
what you want your world to be.
Gandhi, you know, Be the change in the world that you want to see.
And it will happen if everybody gets on that page.
Jack, what you're doing is great.
You're out there spreading good word, you know, inspiring deep thought.
That's really what we need in our world today.
I wanna say thank you for sharing that here today.
Could you, one, let people know how to get ahold of you, get involved with you?
And two, do you have a call to action for our listeners today?
Yes.
It's a pretty small call to action, but I, but it would make a, a,
a world of difference to me and I would really appreciate it.
Um, the, the place to, uh, get ahold of me is at my website, malefriendlymedia.com,
that's all one word, no hyphens.
malefriendlymedia.com.
Uh, at malefriendlymedia.com, I have a contact, uh, menu item if
you want to send me a message.
Um, I also have a follow menu item in which I ask you to please give
me your email address and I'll keep you posted of anything that I
write and publish on Substack, or Medium, to big blogging platforms.
Uh, I'll also let you know, um, when I do a podcast appearance and, uh, when that
podcast is published and what the link is.
Uh, uh, you know, it, it's been a great conversation and there's
not time enough to get everything into a conversation like this.
So Jack, I'm gonna reach out to you here later on and ask you back so we can
continue with this great conversation.
And I wanna say thank you for being here today.
I wanna thank you for being here today.
You're doing the work, you're doing the hard work, and thank you.
I, podcasting is a, is a very wonderful feature of, it's, it's a
very wonderful resource for what we hope will be the healing of America.
Because it's, we're not, we're not hiding behind a keyboard.
You are a host, I am a guest, we have some civility between us.
It's very much different from, very much different from lobbing hand
grenades at each other on Twitter.
So I love podcasting and thank you for making it possible.
Well, it, it's great to have guests like you, Jack.
The traditional media is dying and this is the new media form, so
people should get serious about it.
So thank you for being here today, Jack.
Thank you, Ed.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.