1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:06,420 You can think of that if you want to, or if you really don't want to. 2 00:00:06,690 --> 00:00:08,910 You can think of that as claiming victimhood. 3 00:00:09,450 --> 00:00:14,190 But really it's just being honest and saying, Hey, we got a big problem here 4 00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:19,575 and, uh, we all gotta get together and work on this because it's eaten us alive. 5 00:00:54,570 --> 00:00:57,810 Today, we are speaking with Jack Kammer. 6 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,769 Jack has a website, malefriendlymedia.com. 7 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:06,360 Jack, could you please introduce yourself? 8 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,030 Let people know just a little more about you, please. 9 00:01:09,690 --> 00:01:10,380 Uh, hi Ed. 10 00:01:10,530 --> 00:01:11,100 Thank you. 11 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:12,660 Well, let's see. 12 00:01:12,660 --> 00:01:15,240 I am a retired social worker. 13 00:01:16,620 --> 00:01:25,470 I went to social work school at the age of fifty-four, um, after I had a 14 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:30,300 career as a marketing PR/IT person. 15 00:01:31,140 --> 00:01:37,164 But my hobby that, my advocation, my passion was about what I did 16 00:01:38,054 --> 00:01:39,495 without getting paid for it. 17 00:01:39,495 --> 00:01:44,414 And that was to be an advocate for men and boys around the 18 00:01:44,414 --> 00:01:47,205 social issues of men and boys. 19 00:01:47,655 --> 00:01:53,414 My first actual experience, and that was in 1983 when I started the radio show 20 00:01:53,414 --> 00:02:01,755 north of Baltimore, called The Lives of Men, and it became pretty quickly clear 21 00:02:02,354 --> 00:02:07,664 that there were a lot of important social issues connected to what was really going 22 00:02:07,664 --> 00:02:14,805 on with men as opposed to what some people liked to pretend was going on with men. 23 00:02:15,255 --> 00:02:21,285 Which was that men have it easy, being male is nothing but a privilege, 24 00:02:22,454 --> 00:02:27,195 being male is nothing but an advantage, and men don't have any problems, 25 00:02:27,465 --> 00:02:32,865 and if they do, it's their own fault, and men run the world, and 26 00:02:32,865 --> 00:02:35,985 so stop talking about men's issues. 27 00:02:36,675 --> 00:02:40,095 Only women have problems based on gender. 28 00:02:41,775 --> 00:02:47,805 And I can't think of a more incorrect statement about 29 00:02:47,805 --> 00:02:50,895 the human species than that. 30 00:02:51,885 --> 00:02:57,640 And I just became passionately involved, passionately concerned, 31 00:02:58,185 --> 00:03:03,255 more and more convinced that if we're gonna have a healthy society, 32 00:03:03,675 --> 00:03:10,695 we have to be willing to say such radical things as most men are good. 33 00:03:11,895 --> 00:03:13,035 Now, how do I like to say it? 34 00:03:13,335 --> 00:03:16,605 Men aren't perfect, but we're great. 35 00:03:17,805 --> 00:03:21,255 Women are great, but they're not perfect. 36 00:03:23,025 --> 00:03:27,765 And, you know, being able to say that women aren't perfect is a little risky 37 00:03:27,765 --> 00:03:30,255 sometimes, crazy as that might sound. 38 00:03:31,605 --> 00:03:36,945 Uh, you know, we, we live in a, in a, a spirit of the times in which 39 00:03:37,935 --> 00:03:43,035 you can get into a fight by daring to suggest that women are human and 40 00:03:43,065 --> 00:03:45,945 therefore inevitably will do bad things. 41 00:03:47,565 --> 00:03:51,405 Um, and, you know, if you can't talk about somebody's 42 00:03:53,535 --> 00:03:58,485 flaws, you're, they're never gonna get better. 43 00:03:58,485 --> 00:04:01,095 You're never gonna have a better relationship with them. 44 00:04:01,875 --> 00:04:07,005 Uh, you're just gonna have to grind it out and, you know, maybe become resentful, 45 00:04:07,365 --> 00:04:14,295 maybe decide to leave, maybe decide to become an alcoholic just to numb the pain 46 00:04:14,295 --> 00:04:18,865 of having to deal with a person who won't admit that she ever does anything wrong. 47 00:04:19,995 --> 00:04:26,835 Um, you know, to, to, to say that a woman is not perfect these 48 00:04:26,835 --> 00:04:30,495 days is often called misogyny. 49 00:04:31,995 --> 00:04:38,775 You know, that to, to dare to, to say that a woman is human and isn't perfect 50 00:04:39,315 --> 00:04:45,975 is the equivalent, in some people's mind, as misogyny, woman hating. 51 00:04:47,055 --> 00:04:51,945 And I've come to the conclusion that the greatest cause of misogyny these 52 00:04:51,945 --> 00:04:58,725 days is overuse of the word misogyny for the reasons we just talked about. 53 00:04:59,925 --> 00:05:07,305 You know, if you, if, if I cannot say anything that's the least bit critical 54 00:05:07,755 --> 00:05:12,225 of a woman or of women in general without being called a woman hater 55 00:05:12,284 --> 00:05:19,539 and shamed, and shut down and shunned, well, my feelings about that woman 56 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:22,020 are not going to magically improve. 57 00:05:23,250 --> 00:05:27,000 They're gonna go underground, they're gonna fester, and 58 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,110 they're not gonna get better. 59 00:05:28,110 --> 00:05:31,500 We're not gonna improve our relationship, we might end up 60 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:33,000 in a divorce if we're married. 61 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:39,780 Um, so we really gotta get to a better place where we approximate 62 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:47,820 the ability that women have to voice very strongly what they would 63 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:49,530 like to see men do differently. 64 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:58,260 It would be great if men felt just as empowered, just as safe, uh, that they 65 00:05:58,260 --> 00:06:04,920 would be just as respected, heard, and listened to if we could say, Honey, 66 00:06:05,010 --> 00:06:09,420 um, you know, there are a couple things I really would like to talk with you 67 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:11,460 about that are kind of driving me crazy. 68 00:06:12,270 --> 00:06:15,390 And that can, that can often go downhill very fast. 69 00:06:15,719 --> 00:06:19,049 Now it's probably gonna, it's probably gonna go off better with 70 00:06:19,049 --> 00:06:24,000 your wife because, you know, she knows you and she loves you, we hope. 71 00:06:24,270 --> 00:06:26,250 Then you know and love her, we hope. 72 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:33,510 But, you know, in the political sphere where we are so, so, so polarized, 73 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:39,750 you really have, it's hard to be a man and to say anything about how you 74 00:06:39,750 --> 00:06:44,640 think women take advantage of things in a way that's not fair sometimes. 75 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:52,950 I mean, just that can, can cause a huge, huge problems for a man and, and huge 76 00:06:52,950 --> 00:06:55,799 problems for, uh, social discourse. 77 00:06:56,340 --> 00:06:59,010 So, you know, that's, that's who I am and that's where, that, 78 00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:00,270 that's where I'm coming from. 79 00:07:00,419 --> 00:07:04,320 We just gotta be more honest, more, uh, fair with each other about 80 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:13,155 talking about what's really true about us as flawed human beings. 81 00:07:13,365 --> 00:07:14,715 We're, we're not perfect. 82 00:07:15,075 --> 00:07:18,465 And we've talked a lot about men's imperfections. 83 00:07:18,465 --> 00:07:21,135 We really need to get to a point where we can talk about women's 84 00:07:21,135 --> 00:07:24,045 imperfections without being mean about it. 85 00:07:26,175 --> 00:07:26,415 Yeah. 86 00:07:27,255 --> 00:07:27,765 Yeah. 87 00:07:28,275 --> 00:07:32,115 Jack, it's very important what you're saying. 88 00:07:32,415 --> 00:07:40,185 And my wife and I, we had a very healthy conversation before we, 89 00:07:40,185 --> 00:07:45,075 we got on here today to have this conversation because it's, it's 90 00:07:45,075 --> 00:07:47,565 one of those needed conversations. 91 00:07:48,465 --> 00:07:55,335 We are damaged as a society and it's, it's really urgent 92 00:07:55,425 --> 00:07:57,885 that we address these things. 93 00:07:58,035 --> 00:08:03,195 So my first question is, Why don't you have a podcast? 94 00:08:05,895 --> 00:08:08,190 The honest answer, Ed, is because 95 00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:11,520 it's a lot of work. 96 00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:14,850 I did do a podcast. 97 00:08:15,719 --> 00:08:19,169 Yes, and you know, you know very well how much work it is. 98 00:08:19,229 --> 00:08:23,909 And I did do a podcast for a while, but I didn't find it 99 00:08:23,909 --> 00:08:29,429 very fulfilling, um, compared to the amount of work it required. 100 00:08:30,090 --> 00:08:34,319 And, you know, it's probably got something to do with the fact that, 101 00:08:34,409 --> 00:08:39,839 you know, like a lot of passionate people, I think I've got some, 102 00:08:41,850 --> 00:08:48,180 some important ideas that I want to convey, that I want to get out there. 103 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:53,220 And when you're a podcast host and you have people coming in from 104 00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:58,000 all directions, it's your duty to help them tell their story. 105 00:08:58,950 --> 00:09:05,265 And lots of times my guests just didn't seem like they really had a 106 00:09:05,265 --> 00:09:09,195 whole lot new or important to say. 107 00:09:10,035 --> 00:09:12,825 And so I was doing all this work so they could say what they wanted 108 00:09:12,825 --> 00:09:17,025 to say and it's like, Yeah, but you're really missing the point. 109 00:09:17,085 --> 00:09:20,655 Now I understand that that's kind of egotistical, but you know, that's, 110 00:09:20,865 --> 00:09:22,605 that's where I am, that's where I am. 111 00:09:22,605 --> 00:09:27,525 I've been doing this since 1983 and you know, I sort of am at the point 112 00:09:27,525 --> 00:09:33,375 where I think I, I do have some, some expertise in these issues. 113 00:09:34,185 --> 00:09:40,905 Uh, I've considered them fairly, fully, uh, I've been through a lot of different 114 00:09:40,905 --> 00:09:43,065 ideas, a lot of different points of view. 115 00:09:43,065 --> 00:09:46,905 Sometimes I've been optimistic, sometimes I've been pessimistic. 116 00:09:46,905 --> 00:09:52,875 Sometimes I think women are really great, and sometimes I think women really aren't 117 00:09:52,875 --> 00:09:55,005 so great the way they're treating men. 118 00:09:55,545 --> 00:10:01,080 So, I sort of, uh, I, I, I don't have a podcast 'cause 119 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,700 I'm, I'm not as nice as you are. 120 00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:02,820 No. 121 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,960 Now I, I don't believe that, Jack. 122 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:10,380 But anyway, that's for another debate. 123 00:10:12,060 --> 00:10:16,920 You know, we, we are definitely hurting and it is crucial that we 124 00:10:16,950 --> 00:10:21,240 have conversations like this no matter who hosts the conversation. 125 00:10:21,870 --> 00:10:26,970 And, and you are correct, it is to highlight the guest. 126 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,900 And, and that's what we do here on the Dead America Podcast. 127 00:10:31,290 --> 00:10:36,360 And that's why I really am going to enjoy today's conversation because 128 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,200 it's one of those conversations that I'm passionate about. 129 00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:42,120 I think we are broken. 130 00:10:42,330 --> 00:10:45,830 We're not polarized, we're just smashed. 131 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:52,830 And sometimes you have to be smashed into rubble to be able to form 132 00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:55,400 yourself into this concrete block. 133 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,240 And I think that's where we are with relationship, men and women. 134 00:11:00,689 --> 00:11:07,350 Uh, there is no man versus woman, it's human beings. 135 00:11:07,709 --> 00:11:14,069 And I think we all forgot that, men and women, how we treat each other 136 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,280 with respect, and dignity, and honor. 137 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,709 This is really hurting, not only America, but the world because 138 00:11:22,709 --> 00:11:29,939 everybody looks on to America as the so-called leader of the world. 139 00:11:30,329 --> 00:11:34,110 And I think we're shamed there at the current moment also. 140 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:41,250 So it's really about being truthful, forthright, and yes, 141 00:11:41,459 --> 00:11:43,560 telling it how you see it. 142 00:11:43,589 --> 00:11:48,660 Because if we don't understand each other and how we actually see 143 00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:51,959 these problems, there's no way out. 144 00:11:52,680 --> 00:12:01,080 So it's critical that we understand we are broken and women have just 145 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,490 as much right as men to feel broken. 146 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:12,300 And we, both sexes, need to understand that and come together 147 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,580 to form that concrete now. 148 00:12:15,180 --> 00:12:16,710 What do you think about that, Jack? 149 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:18,630 I think that's great. 150 00:12:18,630 --> 00:12:23,280 I love your metaphor about having to break, uh, break things down to 151 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:28,560 rubble sometimes to be able to reform them in a, in a, a new shape and a, 152 00:12:28,590 --> 00:12:33,690 and a usable block for the building of, uh, a new and improved society. 153 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,310 I agree with, I, I like, I like the way you put that. 154 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:39,960 I think, I think you're right. 155 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:41,340 Yeah. 156 00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:45,420 So, so our relationships are broken, Jack. 157 00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:53,085 How do we approach this problem other than podcasting? 158 00:12:54,195 --> 00:12:58,785 How do we approach the problem with a rational approach? 159 00:13:01,185 --> 00:13:04,725 Well, that's, that's a great question. 160 00:13:04,725 --> 00:13:13,545 I think the first thing to say about how we do it is that we think in terms of 161 00:13:14,445 --> 00:13:16,935 ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years. 162 00:13:18,195 --> 00:13:20,925 I think that's how deep this goes. 163 00:13:21,585 --> 00:13:27,105 You know, the, the women's movement started late fifties, maybe some 164 00:13:27,105 --> 00:13:29,955 people even traced it to the forties with Rosie the Riveter. 165 00:13:30,535 --> 00:13:31,875 Forties, fifties, sixties. 166 00:13:31,875 --> 00:13:36,015 In 1963 Betty Friedan published her book, The Feminine Mystique. 167 00:13:36,015 --> 00:13:41,145 That's often regarded as the, the, the starting point for the current 168 00:13:42,015 --> 00:13:47,954 brand of feminism, which I think Betty Friedan would not be happy with, to 169 00:13:47,954 --> 00:13:50,115 see what has happened to her ideas. 170 00:13:50,775 --> 00:13:57,255 Um, her book was not an, it was not anti-male at all. 171 00:13:57,675 --> 00:14:03,435 She talked about a lot of things that she doesn't like that men think about 172 00:14:03,435 --> 00:14:06,555 women, but she didn't blame men. 173 00:14:06,645 --> 00:14:11,265 She pointed to the culture, you know, the ideas that we are raised with. 174 00:14:11,954 --> 00:14:13,365 She wasn't mean about it. 175 00:14:14,025 --> 00:14:18,285 She, she actually was pretty sympathetic to the fact that life 176 00:14:18,285 --> 00:14:22,275 was, well, she wrote a book about the difficulties that women were having. 177 00:14:23,444 --> 00:14:27,915 Um, but in her book, she included recognition that it 178 00:14:27,915 --> 00:14:29,805 wasn't a picnic for men either. 179 00:14:30,375 --> 00:14:37,829 She, she even pointed out in her book, approvingly, a magazine article in Red 180 00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:44,040 Book Magazine, a very influential women's magazine in, I think it was April of 1962, 181 00:14:45,359 --> 00:14:51,780 and the, the, the title of the article was Why Young Husbands Feel Trapped. 182 00:14:52,979 --> 00:14:57,209 And this is Betty Friedan, the woman who pretty much launched the current 183 00:14:57,599 --> 00:15:02,189 wave of feminism, was one of the co-founders of the National Organization 184 00:15:02,189 --> 00:15:07,410 for Women, was the first president of the National Organization for Women. 185 00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:15,329 Very strong woman's advocate, but not a detractor of men. 186 00:15:16,170 --> 00:15:24,510 And in the 1980s, about, uh, seventeen to twenty some years after she, she 187 00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:30,150 wrote her book, she wrote, she was basically a magazine writer in her 188 00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:35,160 early career, she got an article into Red Book Magazine herself that said, 189 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:44,700 the dialogue has gone on too long in terms of women alone, let men join 190 00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:47,970 women at the center of the second stage. 191 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,020 She was saying, We really need to hear from men here. 192 00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:57,210 I think the biggest mistake that the women's movement made, and, uh, and 193 00:15:57,210 --> 00:16:00,960 you can't trace this to Betty Friedan because she didn't do this, but in 194 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:08,100 the late sixties, about six years after Betty Friedan published The 195 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:13,650 Feminine Mystique, a group of women in New York called The Red Stockings, 196 00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:17,940 published The Red Stockings Manifesto. 197 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,420 Now I can't prove this, but it certainly is plausible. 198 00:16:24,420 --> 00:16:27,360 It makes sense, it, all the pieces fit. 199 00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:36,390 When Betty Friedan published The Feminine Mystique, it was about how women 200 00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:39,270 needed more opportunity in their lives. 201 00:16:40,170 --> 00:16:45,570 Many women, uh, interviewed and, uh, polled for Betty Friedan's book 202 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:51,720 were college educated women and they liked being mothers, they liked being 203 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,660 important to their families, they love their husbands, but too much 204 00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:56,430 of any good thing is a bad thing. 205 00:16:57,150 --> 00:17:02,160 And the problem that had no name, as Betty Friedan called it, was 206 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,140 that there were women who wanted to do more than be at home, taking 207 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:08,700 care of kids, running a house. 208 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:15,710 Women wanted to be lawyers, doctors, women wanna be astronauts, soldiers, CEOs. 209 00:17:16,550 --> 00:17:17,020 And 210 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,880 you know, it was a shame all those years that we wasted all of that talent. 211 00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:26,550 Uh, but we did. 212 00:17:27,569 --> 00:17:33,240 And at the same time that Betty Friedan was talking about what 213 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,380 women needed, she also recognized that it wasn't a picnic for men. 214 00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:42,360 And I'm old enough to remember that back in the early days of the women's movement, 215 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,590 a lot of men were sort of excited about what Betty Friedan was talking about. 216 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:52,230 Because it occurred to us that it was gonna be good for us in 217 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,540 at least two very important ways. 218 00:17:54,660 --> 00:18:02,790 One, as women made money in their own jobs, the pressure on men to make all of 219 00:18:02,790 --> 00:18:05,370 the families' money would be lessened. 220 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:10,290 And that's one of the hugest disadvantages of being a traditional 221 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,580 male, you're making the money and all of the pressure is on you. 222 00:18:14,940 --> 00:18:19,200 And if the kids don't have the money for the braces they need, or the new 223 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,160 shoes, or to go to a good school, you know, that's sort of on the man 224 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:26,430 for, for not being a good provider. 225 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:32,295 So number one, less pressure on men to make money. 226 00:18:32,625 --> 00:18:38,355 Number two, if anybody had asked, would've been that a lot of men would've said, 227 00:18:38,355 --> 00:18:41,595 Yeah, you know, something else that we would really like if we're really going 228 00:18:41,595 --> 00:18:48,975 to pursue this idea of gender equality and not pigeonholing men into one space 229 00:18:48,975 --> 00:18:53,235 and women into another, just by virtue of their sex, another thing we'd really 230 00:18:53,235 --> 00:18:59,865 like as men would be, we'd really like to have more time to get to know our kids. 231 00:19:01,515 --> 00:19:04,785 We don't want to be working forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty hours a 232 00:19:04,785 --> 00:19:10,305 week full time with all this pressure on us and coming home tired and grumpy. 233 00:19:11,565 --> 00:19:14,355 We wanna have better relationships with our kids. 234 00:19:16,155 --> 00:19:19,635 Women want to be equal in, in the world of business, 235 00:19:20,115 --> 00:19:23,745 we would like to be equal in the world of the family. 236 00:19:24,915 --> 00:19:26,145 That's what we would like. 237 00:19:26,625 --> 00:19:34,575 So when men started talking about that, women who were thinking of becoming 238 00:19:34,575 --> 00:19:38,985 feminists and joining the women's movement sort of had some second thoughts. 239 00:19:38,985 --> 00:19:43,995 And a lot of women were kind of hesitant about this women's movement thing because 240 00:19:43,995 --> 00:19:50,355 this women's movement thing, this women's lib idea, well, we like part of it, we 241 00:19:50,355 --> 00:19:55,605 want, we wanna have more opportunities for ourselves, but we're not really 242 00:19:55,605 --> 00:19:57,945 interested in giving up what we have. 243 00:19:58,395 --> 00:20:05,205 Of being the CEOs of the family, and, and the main person in the family, 244 00:20:05,534 --> 00:20:09,435 and the, the person who has the primary relationship with the kids. 245 00:20:09,705 --> 00:20:10,935 We don't wanna give that up. 246 00:20:11,945 --> 00:20:16,305 We wanna, we wanna get, but that we're not so interested in giving. 247 00:20:17,024 --> 00:20:21,405 Well, that presented the problem for the women's movement. 248 00:20:21,435 --> 00:20:25,034 How can you be talking about fairness and equality between the 249 00:20:25,034 --> 00:20:32,805 sexes when you're only interested, interested in hearing about and 250 00:20:34,005 --> 00:20:37,395 working on the problems of one sex? 251 00:20:38,715 --> 00:20:44,865 So how did they, how did the, the women's movement justify not paying any attention 252 00:20:44,865 --> 00:20:50,445 to this crazy idea men had about being less responsible for making money and 253 00:20:50,445 --> 00:20:56,235 for being more involved in the family sphere, which has previously, up till now, 254 00:20:56,235 --> 00:20:58,815 been the, the primary domain of women? 255 00:20:59,235 --> 00:21:04,155 Well, the way they justified not listening to men was with this, 256 00:21:05,445 --> 00:21:07,275 uh, Red Stockings Manifesto. 257 00:21:07,635 --> 00:21:13,305 Which said, in part, women are oppressed, 258 00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:18,525 our oppression is total. 259 00:21:19,845 --> 00:21:20,925 It actually said that. 260 00:21:21,405 --> 00:21:23,504 Women's oppression is total. 261 00:21:24,405 --> 00:21:30,225 We identify men as the agents of our oppression. 262 00:21:31,215 --> 00:21:40,185 So if you can get that idea, which they did into the media, whole hog, media 263 00:21:40,185 --> 00:21:45,975 ate it up, uh, get it into policymaking and government, if you can get it 264 00:21:45,975 --> 00:21:50,685 into academia and the social sciences, if you can get that idea accepted 265 00:21:51,284 --> 00:21:57,585 uncritically that men are oppressors and women are oppressed, well, then 266 00:21:57,645 --> 00:22:01,935 the oppressed women don't need to ask the oppressors, What would you like? 267 00:22:03,795 --> 00:22:06,675 You get to treat 'em any way you want, including killing them, 268 00:22:07,274 --> 00:22:09,645 annihilating them, banishing them. 269 00:22:11,805 --> 00:22:13,815 That's pretty much where we are. 270 00:22:13,905 --> 00:22:15,555 Men are not listened to. 271 00:22:16,635 --> 00:22:19,845 We, nobody's asking, What do you need? 272 00:22:19,845 --> 00:22:20,745 What would you like? 273 00:22:21,015 --> 00:22:25,485 What would, what would a gender equal world look like to you? 274 00:22:26,295 --> 00:22:28,785 No, we are not part of the solution. 275 00:22:29,715 --> 00:22:31,095 We are the problem. 276 00:22:31,785 --> 00:22:40,965 And it's not working to operate on the idea that only one sex is ever sexist and 277 00:22:40,965 --> 00:22:43,725 only one sex is ever harmed by sexism. 278 00:22:44,415 --> 00:22:45,345 It's not working. 279 00:22:45,615 --> 00:22:52,245 And so how do we, how do, I think you, I started this answer with your question 280 00:22:52,245 --> 00:22:54,765 of how do we, what do we do, right? 281 00:22:55,785 --> 00:22:59,865 Um, what, what we do is, well, 282 00:23:01,905 --> 00:23:11,250 the easy, the easy part actually, I think is, to ask fair-minded women, not 283 00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:15,450 the squeaky wheels, not the ones who really hate men and really think men are 284 00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:23,100 oppressors and women have been oppressed, but to ask the really equal minded, 285 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,920 fair-minded, honorable women who love men, love their husbands, love their sons, 286 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,180 love their brothers, love their uncles, love men in general, appreciate men. 287 00:23:33,930 --> 00:23:41,940 To call upon, encourage, plead, perhaps, with those kind of women to 288 00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:45,030 just stand up for us when you can. 289 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:51,000 Like if you're out with your girlfriends after work, let's say, and you know, 290 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,680 three or four of them start, start harping on some terrible thing about 291 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:01,500 men, and it's very sweeping and over generalized and just not very based in 292 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:06,565 context, or understanding, or empathy, or anything, it would be great if 293 00:24:08,804 --> 00:24:16,635 women who appreciate men were to say something like, Ladies, um, you 294 00:24:16,635 --> 00:24:23,235 know, we've talked a lot about how men are sexist and, and how sexism is 295 00:24:23,235 --> 00:24:26,445 so harmful to the targets of sexism. 296 00:24:26,445 --> 00:24:31,034 Uh, we certainly talk about how we have been, we as women have been 297 00:24:31,034 --> 00:24:33,855 harmed by men's sexism against us. 298 00:24:34,784 --> 00:24:37,334 But listen to us, listen to us. 299 00:24:37,784 --> 00:24:40,425 We're doing the same thing, we gotta stop this. 300 00:24:40,935 --> 00:24:44,985 We really need to respect men, ask men what's going on with them. 301 00:24:45,105 --> 00:24:46,875 Treat them as stakeholders. 302 00:24:47,355 --> 00:24:49,544 We talk about diversity and inclusion. 303 00:24:49,544 --> 00:24:50,175 I mean, come on. 304 00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:55,020 We've excluded men for fifty years in this discussion of how we're 305 00:24:55,020 --> 00:25:01,560 gonna refabricate our society along gender fair, gender equal lines. 306 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,330 We gotta stop this. 307 00:25:03,390 --> 00:25:08,820 That's the easy part, asking women to stand up because I think women are 308 00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:11,280 sort of more courageous in this topic. 309 00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:18,420 The hard part is going to be getting men to say anything, and 310 00:25:18,420 --> 00:25:19,920 there's lots of reasons for that. 311 00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:26,250 It's almost like we are in exactly the wrong spot to be able to 312 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:33,120 say anything about this because, you know, the last thing a man 313 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,629 wants to, to, to be is a whiner. 314 00:25:38,190 --> 00:25:39,689 Men don't like to whine, 315 00:25:42,540 --> 00:25:44,280 men don't, men don't like to complain. 316 00:25:45,209 --> 00:25:48,659 Men like to see a problem and solve the problem. 317 00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:52,620 And if they're, you know, real macho guys, they're not gonna 318 00:25:52,620 --> 00:25:55,770 admit that there's any problem that they can't solve on their own. 319 00:25:56,669 --> 00:26:01,229 Because a macho guy says, Ah, if I got a problem, I fix it. 320 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:04,080 And if somebody gives me a hard time, I kick 'em in the ass 321 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,580 and I take care of it myself. 322 00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:10,500 Well, you can't, you know, very well as a, as a honorable man, you know, kick the ass 323 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:12,149 of a woman who's given you a hard time. 324 00:26:12,149 --> 00:26:14,760 So, you know, that's a problem right there. 325 00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:23,129 Um, men do not want to be viewed as claiming to be victims of any kind. 326 00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:26,909 Oh, now men are victims too. 327 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,469 And that's an honorable thing, men don't want to be seen as victims. 328 00:26:31,469 --> 00:26:33,659 We don't want to complain that we're victims. 329 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,719 But you know, the truth of the matter is sometimes there are bigger problems 330 00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:46,125 than you can solve that are adversely affecting you, the people you love 331 00:26:46,125 --> 00:26:48,254 and care about, and your society. 332 00:26:48,885 --> 00:26:55,304 You can think of that if you want to, or if you really don't want to. 333 00:26:55,514 --> 00:26:57,824 You can think of that as claiming victimhood. 334 00:26:58,274 --> 00:27:03,074 But really it's just being honest and saying, Hey, we got a big problem here 335 00:27:03,645 --> 00:27:08,564 and, uh, we all gotta get together and work on this because it's eaten us alive. 336 00:27:10,514 --> 00:27:11,235 So 337 00:27:14,745 --> 00:27:17,925 men do not want to complain, we don't wanna whine. 338 00:27:18,764 --> 00:27:23,864 One of the things that is very big in male culture, and I think it's probably 339 00:27:24,284 --> 00:27:27,405 to a different degree, or at least in a different direction with female 340 00:27:27,405 --> 00:27:29,925 culture, is that what makes a man, a man? 341 00:27:30,705 --> 00:27:35,430 In many ways, and I don't, I don't mean to give a prescription of what a real 342 00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:40,050 man is, 'cause I, I do have a definition that's very much at odds with this. 343 00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:45,390 But one of the things that's very big in male culture that many men subscribe 344 00:27:45,390 --> 00:27:52,140 to is, that a good and honorable man is a man who gives more than he takes. 345 00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:55,380 He gives more than he takes. 346 00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:58,050 But 347 00:28:00,090 --> 00:28:06,060 one of the things we need to ask men to keep in mind is what the flight 348 00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:12,305 attendant tells you at the beginning of every flight about what you should 349 00:28:12,570 --> 00:28:19,980 do if you're sitting next to your kid and the oxygen mask comes down. 350 00:28:21,450 --> 00:28:24,390 You, you've been on a jet, you've been on a jet liner? 351 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:28,710 Put yours on first. 352 00:28:31,679 --> 00:28:32,909 Put yours on first. 353 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,290 Why? 354 00:28:34,439 --> 00:28:36,030 Why do you put yours on first? 355 00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:37,590 Why, why do they want you to do that? 356 00:28:38,699 --> 00:28:39,510 Yeah, of course. 357 00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:44,969 You're no good if you're rendered useless so make sure that 358 00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:48,179 you can survive to carry on. 359 00:28:48,899 --> 00:28:51,750 Worry about yourself, and then others. 360 00:28:52,165 --> 00:28:54,000 And, and its true principle. 361 00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:55,230 Yes. 362 00:28:55,530 --> 00:29:04,230 And so we can ask men to overcome their reticence about putting themself first 363 00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:11,010 in line in terms of what's needed right now to recognize that, you know, if 364 00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:15,840 you're not functioning well, you're no good to the people you care about. 365 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,480 You gotta take something. 366 00:29:19,685 --> 00:29:23,969 You, you gotta, you gotta have some resources to be alive. 367 00:29:24,959 --> 00:29:28,830 And you know, with that in mind, 368 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:40,440 it would be good if men started talking about what we need and how we're 369 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,890 really sort of like waiting to inhale. 370 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:46,950 You know, we need some oxygen. 371 00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:52,980 And, and that oxygen isn't just O2, it's not just the gas. 372 00:29:53,040 --> 00:30:00,330 It's appreciation, respect, caring, empathy, all of these things that 373 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,480 sort of used to be much more abundant in the culture than they are now, 374 00:30:07,860 --> 00:30:09,960 especially across gender lines. 375 00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:13,530 So that's how I think we started. 376 00:30:14,010 --> 00:30:16,680 Be patient, it's not gonna happen overnight. 377 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,120 It's gonna take decades. 378 00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:28,650 And to start small, start humble, don't get angry if you can avoid it. 379 00:30:29,445 --> 00:30:35,685 Understand if you feel angry, what do you really feel before anger jumps in? 380 00:30:35,865 --> 00:30:46,065 What you really might feel is sad, afraid, frustrated, alone, insecure, 381 00:30:46,185 --> 00:30:48,014 and talk about those things. 382 00:30:48,585 --> 00:30:52,155 You know, like you say to your buddies, You know, I, look, I'm really worried 383 00:30:52,695 --> 00:30:55,324 about my kids and my grandkids. 384 00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:56,685 You guys worry about that? 385 00:30:57,915 --> 00:31:03,645 Do you, do you think that we as men are, are being as helpful in 386 00:31:03,645 --> 00:31:07,784 this society as we, as we'd like to be and making things better? 387 00:31:09,705 --> 00:31:14,925 You know, um, and I think a lot of men would say, Uh, no. 388 00:31:16,455 --> 00:31:23,220 And then, you know, the whole idea of men being together is suspect these days. 389 00:31:23,699 --> 00:31:28,260 The Pew Research Center recently did a, released a study that shows that 390 00:31:28,889 --> 00:31:37,230 people are far more suspicious of men getting together in male only groups 391 00:31:38,010 --> 00:31:43,439 than they are about women getting together in female only groups. 392 00:31:44,879 --> 00:31:49,770 Very much related to that research is research that shows that with all 393 00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:53,669 of the talk we've had over the past several years about implicit bias, 394 00:31:55,860 --> 00:32:02,610 at least one study found, a peer reviewed, peer reviewed, uh, piece of 395 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:12,480 research, at least one article found that the strongest and deepest implicit 396 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:21,090 bias is not against blacks, it's not against any other ethnic group, it's 397 00:32:21,090 --> 00:32:28,620 not against women, the strongest implicit bias of all is against men. 398 00:32:29,970 --> 00:32:30,870 It's against men. 399 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:33,000 And 400 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:39,000 so, you know, what does, what does that mean when men want to get together as 401 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,170 men, you know, to go bowling, or to sit and have a few beers, or to, you 402 00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:46,470 know, just to sort of talk about our grandkids, or whatever it is, just to 403 00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:48,510 get to know each other and, and bond? 404 00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:51,210 Oh, what are they doing? 405 00:32:51,210 --> 00:32:52,320 What are those men doing? 406 00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:53,970 What are they talking about? 407 00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:58,980 It's the patriarchy, we gotta smash the patriarchy. 408 00:32:59,670 --> 00:33:00,750 They're oppressors. 409 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,090 You know, we, we gotta get over that and say, No, actually, we went bowling and 410 00:33:06,090 --> 00:33:07,590 we got to know each other a little bit. 411 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:11,460 And a couple fellows showed me pictures of their grandkids and I 412 00:33:11,460 --> 00:33:13,230 showed 'em pictures of my grandkids. 413 00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:17,010 And it was really fun and I can't wait to go back next week. 414 00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:20,290 And that's an important thing too, right there. 415 00:33:21,419 --> 00:33:31,139 Some, some men will feel, um, especially in light of research that shows that men, 416 00:33:31,139 --> 00:33:34,800 more than women these days, are saying they don't spend enough time with their 417 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:42,270 kids, some men will feel that when they have any spare time, they really should be 418 00:33:42,450 --> 00:33:45,330 with their families and with their kids. 419 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:54,165 But again, men need a little bit of oxygen from outside the family. 420 00:33:54,170 --> 00:34:01,800 And so taking two or three hours per week to be with a group of men 421 00:34:03,930 --> 00:34:06,480 is not being selfish to your family. 422 00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:13,174 It's grabbing that oxygen mask, getting what you need so that when 423 00:34:13,174 --> 00:34:20,804 you go home, you're feeling good, strong, kind, loving, patient. 424 00:34:21,585 --> 00:34:27,944 And when I was doing a podcast, I had a guest on, his name was Jim Ellis, 425 00:34:28,004 --> 00:34:33,975 recently deceased, who was an advocate, was a, a, a member, very active 426 00:34:33,975 --> 00:34:37,395 member of a group, I, I don't think I remember the name exactly, something 427 00:34:37,395 --> 00:34:41,475 about Motivate, inspire and something. 428 00:34:42,014 --> 00:34:48,079 Um, but we talked about this on our podcast, that, what, what, 429 00:34:48,975 --> 00:34:52,154 do women ever say, Why are you spending time with those men? 430 00:34:53,324 --> 00:34:55,544 He said, Ask my wife. 431 00:34:56,594 --> 00:35:01,185 When I come home from a meeting, from my weekly meeting with this group of men, 432 00:35:02,115 --> 00:35:09,134 I am so full of energy, I'm so pumped up, I'm so happy, I am so alive that she 433 00:35:11,325 --> 00:35:15,884 wants me to never miss that meeting any week. 434 00:35:16,515 --> 00:35:21,345 It's good for the man, it's good for the relationship, 435 00:35:21,345 --> 00:35:24,404 it's good for the woman, it's good for the kids, it's good for the family. 436 00:35:24,795 --> 00:35:31,365 You extend that out, it's good for the community for men to not listen to all 437 00:35:31,365 --> 00:35:34,995 of the male bashings that's, that's out there in our culture right now. 438 00:35:36,015 --> 00:35:37,035 Who needs men? 439 00:35:37,035 --> 00:35:38,205 It's the end of men. 440 00:35:38,415 --> 00:35:43,694 Men are clueless, men are sex crazed, men just want to drink beer and watch sports. 441 00:35:43,904 --> 00:35:47,924 Men are, they can't multitask, you know, all of that stuff. 442 00:35:47,924 --> 00:35:50,115 Men are slobs, all of that stuff. 443 00:35:50,775 --> 00:35:53,625 Men are oppressors, men are violent. 444 00:35:54,404 --> 00:35:58,245 You know, if, if, if you, if you are immersed in that thinking 445 00:35:59,295 --> 00:36:02,835 about a group of people, do you wanna go hang out with them? 446 00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:04,370 No. 447 00:36:05,955 --> 00:36:09,345 Why would I want to go hang out with a bunch of people who oppress other people? 448 00:36:10,365 --> 00:36:14,985 But that's, that's the brand, that's the reputation of men these days. 449 00:36:16,065 --> 00:36:23,775 Now, we, we mentioned the, the women who are honorable and really care about men. 450 00:36:24,029 --> 00:36:28,965 We gotta recognize that there are many women 451 00:36:30,825 --> 00:36:36,735 who are not honorable about men, who blame all of their unhappiness on men. 452 00:36:37,335 --> 00:36:42,795 Some of which might be well placed, because who knows what happened to 453 00:36:42,795 --> 00:36:49,035 them in, you know, in, when they were young, in their families, at school. 454 00:36:49,035 --> 00:36:50,444 Who knows, who knows what happened. 455 00:36:52,335 --> 00:37:01,710 But there are also many women whose job, who get paid pretty well by 456 00:37:01,710 --> 00:37:06,390 organizations, nonprofit organizations funded by the big philanthropies, 457 00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:10,440 The Ford Foundation, The Rockefeller Foundation, by the federal government, 458 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:23,820 um, professional feminists whose job is to do everything they can to make sure 459 00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:34,050 that the focus stays on women as having problems and men as causing problems. 460 00:37:36,420 --> 00:37:41,700 And that is really corrosive, it's really corrosive. 461 00:37:43,350 --> 00:37:47,700 Well, well, you know, Jack, that, that tells me right there, there's 462 00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:56,319 a, a challenge or a war being placed on the natural order of things. 463 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,940 There's always been a natural order to men and women, and traditionally. 464 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:09,150 But besides the traditional roles, it's a natural order that 465 00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:11,400 those roles have been based on. 466 00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:21,060 And there has been this big blunt, blatant attack on that natural order. 467 00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:30,120 And I've, I've kind of witnessed this for, you know, my whole life, and, you 468 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,790 know, I'm, I'm about to turn sixty. 469 00:38:33,210 --> 00:38:42,900 So there's, there's this, you know, war that's been brewing and building 470 00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:48,810 over this long period of time, and it's got this pendulum effect. 471 00:38:49,580 --> 00:38:57,450 And as we react and they react, the pendulum keeps swinging back and forth. 472 00:38:57,779 --> 00:39:04,799 What I see is it's gonna take the strength of men in that natural order 473 00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:10,379 to grab the pendulum and stop the pendulum from going back and forth, 474 00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:15,149 and that will help restore a balance. 475 00:39:15,839 --> 00:39:20,490 And that bickering back and forth that you were talking about, is a 476 00:39:20,490 --> 00:39:24,060 big, big deal about all of that. 477 00:39:25,049 --> 00:39:26,580 Ed, I understand what you're saying. 478 00:39:27,209 --> 00:39:30,809 I wanna present to you some different thinking about that. 479 00:39:31,770 --> 00:39:34,799 I, I under, I understand what you're saying, I respect it. 480 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:42,689 And, and you are thinking about what do we need to do to, to stop this craziness. 481 00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:52,245 When you talk about the natural order, what I hear, what I think 482 00:39:52,245 --> 00:39:56,504 of, is the primitive order. 483 00:39:57,495 --> 00:40:01,935 The primitive order when we were, when we were a small band of human 484 00:40:01,935 --> 00:40:07,245 beings walking across the grasslands of the Serengeti in Africa. 485 00:40:08,205 --> 00:40:14,955 Very vulnerable to being made extinct by having a saber tooth 486 00:40:14,955 --> 00:40:20,415 tiger jump out of the, I don't know, the grasses, or the jungle, or 487 00:40:20,415 --> 00:40:23,924 whatever's there, and, and eating us. 488 00:40:26,504 --> 00:40:26,745 Yeah. 489 00:40:26,955 --> 00:40:28,365 Well, the Serengeti's grasslands. 490 00:40:28,365 --> 00:40:28,605 Yeah. 491 00:40:28,964 --> 00:40:35,444 So, um, you know, and when we were, when we were vulnerable, when we were 492 00:40:35,444 --> 00:40:44,460 living very primitively, we had to take every opportunity to eek out 493 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:54,000 every bit of efficiency we could to ensure that we survived until tomorrow. 494 00:40:54,750 --> 00:40:59,820 So what that meant was, and this is where natural order sort of 495 00:40:59,820 --> 00:41:01,170 plays into what you're saying, 496 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:08,940 we said, Okay, we have babies here, these babies are important 497 00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:10,680 for the survival of the species. 498 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:14,400 The woman has the breasts, 499 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,220 I've got the bigger muscles, I'm the man, I've got the bigger muscles. 500 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,259 So it's not the natural order yet 'cause we haven't started it. 501 00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:30,779 But the smart thing for us to do is to have you be in charge of the 502 00:41:30,779 --> 00:41:36,390 babies and I'll be in charge of keeping the saber tooth tigers at bay. 503 00:41:40,050 --> 00:41:47,445 As we became more and more civilized and we started having things like 504 00:41:49,095 --> 00:41:59,205 laws and customs, and taboos, and constables and jails and you know, as 505 00:41:59,205 --> 00:42:04,155 we became more civilized and had more rules about what's gonna be acceptable 506 00:42:05,265 --> 00:42:07,275 among human beings and what's not, 507 00:42:10,275 --> 00:42:16,905 we still kept those primitive ideas of what women needed to 508 00:42:16,905 --> 00:42:19,995 do and what men needed to do. 509 00:42:21,465 --> 00:42:27,915 Now in the forties, and fifties, and sixties, a lot of women didn't need 510 00:42:28,125 --> 00:42:30,285 to always have a baby on their hip. 511 00:42:30,795 --> 00:42:33,465 The kids could have been at school, right? 512 00:42:34,125 --> 00:42:34,605 Um, 513 00:42:36,765 --> 00:42:39,735 so, so 514 00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:45,600 as civilization became more and more developed, it became more and more 515 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:53,910 possible for us to not have to be so specialized in the idea that women are 516 00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:57,210 taking care of the kids and the men are taking care of everything on the outside. 517 00:42:59,610 --> 00:43:05,400 For instance, I mean, would you, would you agree or would you not agree, how do you 518 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,530 feel about women wanting to be doctors? 519 00:43:08,070 --> 00:43:11,190 Is that okay with you or is that a violation of the natural order? 520 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,120 No, that's perfectly fine with me. 521 00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:15,960 Yeah. 522 00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:17,820 Okay. 523 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:25,650 Now, in the 1890s, I've read the diaries of various pioneering women 524 00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:33,450 who dared to say to their families, especially their fathers, um, 525 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,925 I, I, I'm not, no, I don't wanna, I don't wanna marry John from the, you 526 00:43:41,925 --> 00:43:47,745 know, mercantile exchange even though you think I should, I want to be a doctor. 527 00:43:50,235 --> 00:43:54,495 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 528 00:43:54,495 --> 00:43:55,755 That's, no, no. 529 00:43:56,955 --> 00:44:00,975 Or even worse than a doctor, I wanna be a lawyer. 530 00:44:02,025 --> 00:44:08,505 Oh my God, you want to turn your back on, on your natural God-given 531 00:44:10,905 --> 00:44:11,295 place in life? 532 00:44:13,210 --> 00:44:18,585 You, a woman who's supposed to be all about loving and caring, and listening, 533 00:44:18,585 --> 00:44:23,205 and making people happy and feel good, and trying to patch up, uh, disagreements. 534 00:44:23,535 --> 00:44:26,235 You wanna give all that up and become a lawyer and argue 535 00:44:26,235 --> 00:44:28,695 all day and get paid for it? 536 00:44:29,025 --> 00:44:31,045 What kind of a woman are you? 537 00:44:31,654 --> 00:44:34,215 That's, there might be something wrong with you. 538 00:44:35,775 --> 00:44:41,925 And so the, the pioneering women had to get over that and 539 00:44:42,255 --> 00:44:43,785 they have gotten way over that. 540 00:44:44,925 --> 00:44:49,005 Lots of women are great doctors, lots of women are great lawyers, lots of 541 00:44:49,005 --> 00:44:53,865 women are great politicians, great scientists, great business people. 542 00:44:54,075 --> 00:44:56,445 We got over all of those stereotypes. 543 00:44:56,895 --> 00:45:06,255 The problem is, I think that with all of that success that women have wrought for 544 00:45:06,255 --> 00:45:14,385 themselves, following Betty Friedan's book about how women need to have more options, 545 00:45:15,675 --> 00:45:22,995 men have far, still today have far fewer options to achieve what we 546 00:45:22,995 --> 00:45:31,590 were thinking we might get from this idea of overcoming sexist stereotypes 547 00:45:31,590 --> 00:45:33,810 and, and rigid gender roles. 548 00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:40,410 Now I know it's true that there are more and more men who are getting 549 00:45:40,410 --> 00:45:45,330 into the formerly female domain, and we have full-time fathers now. 550 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,900 Full-time fathers who stay home, take care of the kids. 551 00:45:49,830 --> 00:45:54,630 When I see them at the playground, I ask them, How do you like the fatherhood gig? 552 00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:56,580 And they say two things. 553 00:45:56,580 --> 00:45:58,380 Almost always, they say two things. 554 00:45:59,130 --> 00:46:00,600 They'll say, I love it. 555 00:46:01,350 --> 00:46:05,550 But then they immediately follow with, It's a lot of work. 556 00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:10,770 And then I respond with, Well, well, when you were working, that 557 00:46:10,770 --> 00:46:12,150 was a lot of work too, wasn't it? 558 00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:16,710 And they smile and they laugh and they say, Yeah, I guess that was too. 559 00:46:18,210 --> 00:46:24,645 So there are people who look at those guys and sort of treat them the 560 00:46:24,645 --> 00:46:31,335 way, in the late 1800's, we treated women who didn't wanna stay home 561 00:46:31,815 --> 00:46:33,255 and they wanted to become lawyers. 562 00:46:33,404 --> 00:46:40,335 Here's this guy who was a lawyer, hated it, hated it, but really 563 00:46:40,335 --> 00:46:47,295 likes teaching, working with, being a primary influence on his kids. 564 00:46:47,685 --> 00:46:54,825 And not only that, he's married to that lawyer, or her great granddaughter, 565 00:46:55,875 --> 00:46:58,005 he's, and they rely on each other. 566 00:46:58,335 --> 00:47:02,924 She can go and do her job, become, work to become a partner in 567 00:47:02,924 --> 00:47:04,875 six years in the big law firm. 568 00:47:05,235 --> 00:47:10,755 But she needs to know that the kids are safe and the kids are okay. 569 00:47:10,755 --> 00:47:13,785 She doesn't have to always be thinking and worrying about the kids. 570 00:47:14,835 --> 00:47:15,735 Joe's got it. 571 00:47:16,545 --> 00:47:20,085 And I know Joe loves those kids, and I know he is a great man and a smart guy, 572 00:47:20,085 --> 00:47:22,365 and I love him and I don't have to worry. 573 00:47:23,355 --> 00:47:25,035 And it works, it works. 574 00:47:25,035 --> 00:47:29,775 Now that's, that's the hundred percent, a hundred percent proposition. 575 00:47:29,955 --> 00:47:33,225 There's a bazillion different combinations you can have of that. 576 00:47:34,215 --> 00:47:37,935 You know, where not every woman who wants to be a lawyer wants to make partner. 577 00:47:37,935 --> 00:47:41,250 A woman who wants to be a lawyer might wanna just, you know, sort 578 00:47:41,250 --> 00:47:47,265 of, you know, give it 50%, the other 50%, she wants to be the mom. 579 00:47:48,525 --> 00:47:50,595 All kinds of permutations of that. 580 00:47:51,495 --> 00:47:55,965 But the problem is that when we think about work/life balance at the law firm, 581 00:47:57,495 --> 00:48:04,515 we're thinking about policies toward women who need to take time off from 582 00:48:04,515 --> 00:48:06,884 work to go and take care of the kids. 583 00:48:07,365 --> 00:48:13,965 We don't think at all about policies for the male lawyers who would 584 00:48:13,965 --> 00:48:18,075 love to take some time off so they can go and take care of the kids. 585 00:48:19,485 --> 00:48:24,150 So really, what is this, this is all about, this is all about 586 00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:26,040 changing the natural order. 587 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,450 I mean, the natural order is, the essence of the natural order 588 00:48:30,450 --> 00:48:37,830 is that parents love their kids, mothers and fathers love their kids. 589 00:48:38,430 --> 00:48:42,090 And the natural order is that they're, that they're human beings 590 00:48:42,090 --> 00:48:46,470 and they're smart, and they can think about what's the best way to do this. 591 00:48:47,310 --> 00:48:49,110 And they can do all kinds of things. 592 00:48:51,210 --> 00:48:58,470 So this, this could be considered reinventing yourselves. 593 00:48:58,710 --> 00:49:02,400 Women reinvented themselves by saying, We're not gonna just be 594 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,230 mothers and stay at home all day. 595 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:05,490 We love that. 596 00:49:05,490 --> 00:49:08,250 But that's, we want, we want other things too. 597 00:49:09,060 --> 00:49:13,530 We, women reinvented themselves as astronauts, and soldiers, 598 00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:19,140 and politicians, and doctors, and lawyers, that's wonderful. 599 00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:26,190 We need men to be able to reinvent themselves, and it's perfectly 600 00:49:26,190 --> 00:49:29,820 understandable that we need, that men need to reinvent themselves. 601 00:49:29,820 --> 00:49:34,950 Because look at how their traditional role has been made pretty much 602 00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:40,320 impossible or very, very difficult these days with the fact that many 603 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:48,420 blue collar jobs, many manufacturing jobs, many jobs for which a high school 604 00:49:48,420 --> 00:49:50,730 diploma was a ticket to a good life, 605 00:49:53,250 --> 00:50:01,140 the economy of men's occupations has really changed strongly, even drastically. 606 00:50:02,130 --> 00:50:05,610 So let's, let's talk about reinvention a little bit. 607 00:50:07,410 --> 00:50:10,470 Back in the beginning days of IBM, the corporation, 608 00:50:12,545 --> 00:50:18,585 IBM's main business was to make big computers. 609 00:50:19,215 --> 00:50:23,505 I think they had a nickname like Big Metal, or Big Iron, 610 00:50:23,505 --> 00:50:24,555 or something like that. 611 00:50:26,265 --> 00:50:30,975 And they were doing really well making physical computers, 612 00:50:30,975 --> 00:50:32,985 you know, as big as a room. 613 00:50:34,635 --> 00:50:39,045 But as computers advanced, and advanced, and advanced, became smaller, and smaller, 614 00:50:39,045 --> 00:50:45,825 and smaller, and more and more companies came into that space with innovations 615 00:50:45,975 --> 00:50:52,125 about how to make computers better, less expensive, different technologies. 616 00:50:53,805 --> 00:51:00,975 Big Blue, IBM said, Whoa, things have really changed for us, our business model. 617 00:51:01,905 --> 00:51:02,955 What are we gonna do? 618 00:51:03,435 --> 00:51:05,595 We keep this up, we're gonna be out of business. 619 00:51:06,015 --> 00:51:08,265 What they did was they reinvented themselves. 620 00:51:08,535 --> 00:51:12,315 A bunch of smart executives said, All right. 621 00:51:12,945 --> 00:51:17,115 What are the two main components of the, of, of a computer that's doing good work? 622 00:51:17,445 --> 00:51:22,935 Well, we've been working on one, the iron, the machine, but 623 00:51:22,935 --> 00:51:24,705 it's nothing without software. 624 00:51:25,845 --> 00:51:26,415 It's nothing. 625 00:51:26,415 --> 00:51:32,001 Without networking, we're gonna become, we're gonna reinvent ourselves as a 626 00:51:32,835 --> 00:51:35,445 software and computer services company. 627 00:51:36,555 --> 00:51:41,565 Reinvented themselves, it worked, and they've been thriving. 628 00:51:42,885 --> 00:51:49,095 Similarly, I know it's a big, it's a big jolt to a lot of men's thinking. 629 00:51:49,605 --> 00:51:53,325 Although I think underneath they might be thinking, Woo, I 630 00:51:53,325 --> 00:51:54,915 would kind of like to try that. 631 00:51:55,605 --> 00:51:57,105 Men reinvent themselves. 632 00:51:57,105 --> 00:52:03,015 Take the, take their, take their essential components, what are 633 00:52:03,015 --> 00:52:04,515 all the good things about men? 634 00:52:05,595 --> 00:52:10,845 And apply them to running a house with a bunch of kids. 635 00:52:12,585 --> 00:52:17,955 Raising the kids, uh, helping the kids learn how to be good people. 636 00:52:18,945 --> 00:52:24,015 I used to work for National Fatherhood Initiative and at NFI, 637 00:52:24,075 --> 00:52:26,715 we had a word that we made up. 638 00:52:26,715 --> 00:52:28,965 I didn't make it up, it was there before I got there. 639 00:52:28,965 --> 00:52:30,205 It was, it's firmth. 640 00:52:31,065 --> 00:52:32,175 The word is firmth. 641 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,215 And, and NFI used to talk about it as a characteristic and a 642 00:52:37,215 --> 00:52:41,865 quality that men, especially, were able to provide for their kids. 643 00:52:42,475 --> 00:52:47,174 Firmth is a combination of firmness and warmth. 644 00:52:48,765 --> 00:52:52,515 And if you think about, you know, a really, if you think about a 645 00:52:52,515 --> 00:52:57,884 really good dad, the kind of dad we would all like to have, he's firm 646 00:52:57,884 --> 00:53:01,245 with you but he's warm with you. 647 00:53:01,935 --> 00:53:05,205 And he's not shaming you and he's not out of control. 648 00:53:06,255 --> 00:53:11,069 He's saying, Look, you, you did this and here's why that's not good. 649 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,230 Here's why you shouldn't do it again. 650 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,120 I asked you not to do it, and so you did it anyhow. 651 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,440 Well, I, you, there's gonna be some consequences for your disobeying 652 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,899 me and here's the consequences. 653 00:53:25,140 --> 00:53:27,899 But I still love you, and you're still a great kid, and I'm just 654 00:53:27,899 --> 00:53:30,180 trying to help make you greater, and greater, and greater. 655 00:53:31,049 --> 00:53:36,270 So that when you grow up, you can make my grandkids as good 656 00:53:36,270 --> 00:53:37,440 as I'm trying to make you, 657 00:53:39,544 --> 00:53:40,049 you know? 658 00:53:40,799 --> 00:53:47,669 And so it's, when, when we think of being a mother now, we think of everything being 659 00:53:47,669 --> 00:53:50,430 sort of pink and frilly and kind and nice. 660 00:53:50,580 --> 00:53:56,805 And I mean, look, women invented participation trophies, right? 661 00:53:57,645 --> 00:53:59,475 Isn't that the kind of thing women do? 662 00:54:00,194 --> 00:54:05,355 You know, participation trophies didn't come from out of a man's imagination. 663 00:54:05,625 --> 00:54:08,685 It wasn't so important that every kid feel like a star. 664 00:54:09,134 --> 00:54:13,185 No, you're not a star in soccer, but you know, you're gonna 665 00:54:13,185 --> 00:54:14,625 be a star playing the drums. 666 00:54:14,625 --> 00:54:15,315 I can see it. 667 00:54:15,315 --> 00:54:18,435 What'd we, what do you, how do you wanna do that, you know? 668 00:54:19,095 --> 00:54:19,545 Um, 669 00:54:21,585 --> 00:54:32,115 being a father, it is a very essentially male masculine thing when it's done right. 670 00:54:33,285 --> 00:54:37,005 And there's a lot of joy and opportunity there for men to reinvent 671 00:54:37,005 --> 00:54:38,775 themselves for this new economy. 672 00:54:38,835 --> 00:54:41,235 And again, it doesn't have to be a hundred percent. 673 00:54:41,295 --> 00:54:42,464 He's taking care of kids. 674 00:54:43,245 --> 00:54:47,759 There's lots of opportunities for side hustles, side gigs for the 675 00:54:47,759 --> 00:54:50,549 man to also be making a little bit of money, but still being able 676 00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:52,169 to be the primary parent at home. 677 00:54:53,279 --> 00:54:54,689 That's what I think needs to happen. 678 00:54:55,080 --> 00:55:01,979 Not every woman, however this is, this is, this is where it gets, you 679 00:55:01,979 --> 00:55:04,680 know, a little bit less than ideal. 680 00:55:05,459 --> 00:55:09,270 We've talked so far about the woman who is a great lawyer and wants to be the, 681 00:55:09,870 --> 00:55:14,879 wants to be a partner in six years, and the, the husband who's really digging the 682 00:55:14,879 --> 00:55:17,879 idea of being a nurturing parent at home. 683 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:26,910 And so she loves that idea of letting him have primary, uh, influence at home. 684 00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:34,299 The truth of the matter is that not every woman has a fabulous career 685 00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:41,700 and not every woman therefore is interested in sharing or turning over 686 00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:45,330 to a man, her role as the mother. 687 00:55:46,575 --> 00:55:52,905 Many women just have jobs, they just have jobs. 688 00:55:53,025 --> 00:55:59,625 And they're not so thrilled about the idea of having their husband 689 00:55:59,955 --> 00:56:04,365 take half of their job or sharing the CEO suite in the family. 690 00:56:05,205 --> 00:56:07,875 These women are watching the clock nine to five every day. 691 00:56:07,875 --> 00:56:10,515 They can't wait to get the hell outta there, they wanna get home. 692 00:56:10,545 --> 00:56:11,535 Why do they wanna get home? 693 00:56:11,805 --> 00:56:14,925 Because home is where the heart is, that's where their love is. 694 00:56:16,575 --> 00:56:19,995 And so they're not so interested in having this guy be there equal. 695 00:56:22,785 --> 00:56:27,075 Even further along this point, there are many women who don't even have 696 00:56:27,075 --> 00:56:31,545 jobs other than to be a mother. 697 00:56:32,955 --> 00:56:38,235 And you know, those women are really not interested in letting 698 00:56:38,235 --> 00:56:39,875 the fathers of their kids 699 00:56:42,235 --> 00:56:42,905 share. 700 00:56:43,595 --> 00:56:47,565 Certainly not gonna let 'em have primary influence over the 701 00:56:47,565 --> 00:56:53,065 kids, but is gonna be very, very reluctant to even share it 50/50. 702 00:56:54,345 --> 00:56:58,275 I'm the mother, you'll hear them say, I'm the mother, 703 00:57:00,765 --> 00:57:01,515 where's the money? 704 00:57:03,225 --> 00:57:04,065 Where's the money? 705 00:57:05,025 --> 00:57:07,125 You are a sorry excuse for a man. 706 00:57:08,295 --> 00:57:09,045 Where's the money? 707 00:57:09,975 --> 00:57:12,825 And the guy is thinking, Well, I don't, I don't happen to 708 00:57:12,825 --> 00:57:14,205 be very good at making money. 709 00:57:14,685 --> 00:57:19,214 But these kids and I have great times when we're together. 710 00:57:19,275 --> 00:57:22,455 And I'm reading them stories, and playing games with them, and teaching 711 00:57:22,455 --> 00:57:24,404 them various things, it's working. 712 00:57:25,125 --> 00:57:30,315 So maybe you should get out there and make some money, you know? 713 00:57:31,035 --> 00:57:37,725 Um, that's, you know, that's my, that's my view of what would be a lot happier and 714 00:57:37,725 --> 00:57:44,595 healthier, uh, society with men and, men and women both treating each other fairly. 715 00:57:47,625 --> 00:57:53,655 We men have given up the idea that we should be in total control of the economy. 716 00:57:54,765 --> 00:58:01,635 We need to ask women to get over the idea that they need to be in total 717 00:58:01,635 --> 00:58:07,485 control, top dog, CEO, in the family. 718 00:58:08,205 --> 00:58:13,095 It's gotta be shared, and if it can be shared, we don't have to worry 719 00:58:13,095 --> 00:58:15,225 about who gets what slice of the pie. 720 00:58:16,125 --> 00:58:18,045 We don't have to worry about that one pie. 721 00:58:18,495 --> 00:58:24,075 If we're treating each other fairly and we have a good relationship, we have synergy. 722 00:58:24,555 --> 00:58:29,175 It's not just one plus one equals two, it's one plus one equals infinity. 723 00:58:29,985 --> 00:58:34,245 And we don't have to worry about one pie, we can create a whole bakery. 724 00:58:35,055 --> 00:58:38,325 We can make all the pies we want because we're working together. 725 00:58:38,325 --> 00:58:41,444 We love each other, we're cooperating, we're trying to optimize. 726 00:58:42,194 --> 00:58:43,185 The sky's the limit. 727 00:58:45,105 --> 00:58:48,765 You know, we're not locked into this one little equation 728 00:58:49,035 --> 00:58:50,595 of one plus one equals two. 729 00:58:51,915 --> 00:58:58,455 So, um, so the way I see it is that the rate limiting step right here 730 00:58:58,845 --> 00:59:02,444 is women's willingness to share. 731 00:59:03,165 --> 00:59:09,075 Nobody gives up power for nothing, but smart people will share it. 732 00:59:12,705 --> 00:59:14,654 That's, that's the key right there. 733 00:59:15,690 --> 00:59:17,835 I, I, I really believe that, Jack. 734 00:59:18,315 --> 00:59:22,875 You know, the, the more that we can transition into a sharing 735 00:59:23,265 --> 00:59:26,565 world, the better for all of us. 736 00:59:26,895 --> 00:59:30,705 You know, the toy box is full of toys. 737 00:59:31,395 --> 00:59:33,615 We can all share the toys. 738 00:59:33,705 --> 00:59:39,944 It's, it's fabulous if we just let people create their own lives. 739 00:59:40,035 --> 00:59:44,115 And I, I really believe that's what the essence of what 740 00:59:44,115 --> 00:59:45,765 you're saying is all about. 741 00:59:46,305 --> 00:59:49,620 You have to let people decide what they are. 742 00:59:51,430 --> 00:59:51,650 So, 743 00:59:54,404 --> 00:59:56,745 Yes, that's a, that's a great way to put it. 744 00:59:56,745 --> 01:00:00,075 I love that idea of the, of the toy box full of toys. 745 01:00:00,975 --> 01:00:01,365 Yes. 746 01:00:01,365 --> 01:00:02,745 It's like unlimited potential. 747 01:00:04,995 --> 01:00:05,865 Yeah, Yeah. 748 01:00:05,865 --> 01:00:08,314 It's, it's, that's right. 749 01:00:08,985 --> 01:00:13,694 Life is what you wanna make it so get out there and build 750 01:00:13,875 --> 01:00:16,245 what you want your world to be. 751 01:00:16,424 --> 01:00:20,924 Gandhi, you know, Be the change in the world that you want to see. 752 01:00:21,345 --> 01:00:25,800 And it will happen if everybody gets on that page. 753 01:00:26,490 --> 01:00:28,230 Jack, what you're doing is great. 754 01:00:28,260 --> 01:00:34,230 You're out there spreading good word, you know, inspiring deep thought. 755 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,350 That's really what we need in our world today. 756 01:00:37,710 --> 01:00:41,370 I wanna say thank you for sharing that here today. 757 01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:48,150 Could you, one, let people know how to get ahold of you, get involved with you? 758 01:00:48,450 --> 01:00:52,530 And two, do you have a call to action for our listeners today? 759 01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:54,480 Yes. 760 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,331 It's a pretty small call to action, but I, but it would make a, a, 761 01:00:57,336 --> 01:00:59,760 a world of difference to me and I would really appreciate it. 762 01:01:00,090 --> 01:01:09,245 Um, the, the place to, uh, get ahold of me is at my website, malefriendlymedia.com, 763 01:01:09,585 --> 01:01:11,625 that's all one word, no hyphens. 764 01:01:12,075 --> 01:01:14,185 malefriendlymedia.com. 765 01:01:14,685 --> 01:01:20,325 Uh, at malefriendlymedia.com, I have a contact, uh, menu item if 766 01:01:20,325 --> 01:01:21,645 you want to send me a message. 767 01:01:21,945 --> 01:01:28,155 Um, I also have a follow menu item in which I ask you to please give 768 01:01:28,155 --> 01:01:31,725 me your email address and I'll keep you posted of anything that I 769 01:01:31,725 --> 01:01:37,845 write and publish on Substack, or Medium, to big blogging platforms. 770 01:01:38,325 --> 01:01:45,915 Uh, I'll also let you know, um, when I do a podcast appearance and, uh, when that 771 01:01:45,915 --> 01:01:48,315 podcast is published and what the link is. 772 01:01:49,485 --> 01:01:53,415 Uh, uh, you know, it, it's been a great conversation and there's 773 01:01:53,625 --> 01:01:58,335 not time enough to get everything into a conversation like this. 774 01:01:58,725 --> 01:02:04,125 So Jack, I'm gonna reach out to you here later on and ask you back so we can 775 01:02:04,125 --> 01:02:07,005 continue with this great conversation. 776 01:02:07,875 --> 01:02:10,815 And I wanna say thank you for being here today. 777 01:02:11,685 --> 01:02:13,545 I wanna thank you for being here today. 778 01:02:13,905 --> 01:02:17,645 You're doing the work, you're doing the hard work, and thank you. 779 01:02:17,645 --> 01:02:24,915 I, podcasting is a, is a very wonderful feature of, it's, it's a 780 01:02:24,915 --> 01:02:30,315 very wonderful resource for what we hope will be the healing of America. 781 01:02:30,915 --> 01:02:34,785 Because it's, we're not, we're not hiding behind a keyboard. 782 01:02:35,355 --> 01:02:41,055 You are a host, I am a guest, we have some civility between us. 783 01:02:41,235 --> 01:02:44,924 It's very much different from, very much different from lobbing hand 784 01:02:44,924 --> 01:02:46,665 grenades at each other on Twitter. 785 01:02:47,174 --> 01:02:49,845 So I love podcasting and thank you for making it possible. 786 01:02:51,525 --> 01:02:54,495 Well, it, it's great to have guests like you, Jack. 787 01:02:54,855 --> 01:03:00,375 The traditional media is dying and this is the new media form, so 788 01:03:00,375 --> 01:03:02,595 people should get serious about it. 789 01:03:03,165 --> 01:03:05,165 So thank you for being here today, Jack. 790 01:03:05,165 --> 01:03:06,075 Thank you, Ed. 791 01:03:07,965 --> 01:03:10,799 Thank you for joining us today. 792 01:03:11,459 --> 01:03:17,669 If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, 793 01:03:18,450 --> 01:03:24,870 please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another 794 01:03:24,870 --> 01:03:28,290 great episode of the Dead America Podcast. 795 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:34,080 I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.