1 00:00:01,290 --> 00:00:03,480 Can you feel it coming? 2 00:00:03,810 --> 00:00:06,450 Something's waking up inside. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:17,010 Hearts ablaze, we're standing tall breaking chains of yesterday. 4 00:00:19,530 --> 00:00:25,680 Dead America finds its voice, in the darkness we make choice. 5 00:00:25,979 --> 00:00:32,070 Truth and healing lead the way, hearts ablaze, we're here to stay. 6 00:00:32,310 --> 00:00:36,010 Rise from ashes come what may, we're finding hope 7 00:00:40,230 --> 00:00:45,430 in disarray. 8 00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:50,280 Today we are speaking with Jessica Morris, she is an author. 9 00:00:50,430 --> 00:00:56,160 She has a couple books out now, working on a few more, the books 10 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,380 are Higher Powered and Dewdrops. 11 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:02,130 Jessica, could you please introduce yourself? 12 00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:05,070 And let people know just a little more about you, please. 13 00:01:06,990 --> 00:01:07,649 Sure. 14 00:01:07,710 --> 00:01:09,940 Uh, it's great to be with you today, Ed. 15 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:16,679 And I am, uh, just thrilled to be able to have a platform to talk more about, 16 00:01:16,740 --> 00:01:18,630 uh, where I came from and everything. 17 00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:22,590 Um, I, I am an author, I love that that's how you're introducing me 18 00:01:22,590 --> 00:01:27,990 because it's the thing that I wanted to do my whole life and have spent 19 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,000 many, many years leading to that. 20 00:01:30,479 --> 00:01:36,300 Uh, I am also a practicing spiritual director, uh, which I sort of tripped 21 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:42,789 over when I, I went to seminary to, um, specifically not to become a minister. 22 00:01:42,789 --> 00:01:45,309 Most people go to seminary to become a minister. 23 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:53,500 But I went there to learn the Bible for myself, um, which my husband rolled his 24 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:59,830 eyes when I said that because there's not like a new big paycheck on the other side 25 00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:03,940 of that when you're just going to learn it for yourself and not for a new profession. 26 00:02:04,419 --> 00:02:10,269 Uh, but I grew up the, I'm, I'm the daughter of an alcoholic, uh, minister. 27 00:02:10,359 --> 00:02:16,450 And so my upbringing was really weird when it came to God. 28 00:02:16,450 --> 00:02:19,480 I was very confused about what God thought of me. 29 00:02:20,019 --> 00:02:25,300 Um, I'm the youngest of four and when I was very young, my father told me that I 30 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:30,970 was a mistake and so I just assumed that meant that God thought I was a mistake 31 00:02:31,180 --> 00:02:33,160 because my dad was also my minister. 32 00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:40,820 And he was also a really good minister, he was definitely called to be a minister. 33 00:02:41,390 --> 00:02:48,050 Uh, the people that he ministered to, he was very good at speaking, 34 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:52,340 counseling, being with people, he knew exactly, I mean, he really 35 00:02:52,340 --> 00:02:55,670 did have a gift for all of that. 36 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:02,265 Uh, he didn't know how to do that with his family and he was, um, became 37 00:03:02,265 --> 00:03:05,684 very violent, um, the more he drank. 38 00:03:05,744 --> 00:03:11,295 And, uh, that was just, it was, and my mom was the classic codependent. 39 00:03:11,295 --> 00:03:15,315 She was raised by an alcoholic and so she was really good 40 00:03:15,315 --> 00:03:16,904 at being the minister's wife. 41 00:03:16,904 --> 00:03:21,765 And she was a teacher in this very small town where I grew up and so she kept 42 00:03:21,765 --> 00:03:26,174 everything, I mean, we were trained that, you know, we didn't talk about 43 00:03:26,265 --> 00:03:28,875 anything that went on inside of our home. 44 00:03:29,625 --> 00:03:35,040 And, you know, the people in the town knew that my father drank because it 45 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,935 was a very small town, a lot of hunters, uh, hunters and fishermen, and, um, 46 00:03:40,995 --> 00:03:44,054 you know, blue collar type people. 47 00:03:44,084 --> 00:03:47,415 Um, not that there's anything wrong with that, but they, you know, they 48 00:03:47,685 --> 00:03:53,415 work hard and they party hard and he would go out drinking with them. 49 00:03:53,774 --> 00:03:59,745 And I think that that sort of endeared him to them in a way because here's the 50 00:03:59,745 --> 00:04:04,065 minister drinking with us, so it's okay, you know, he's out drinking and smoking 51 00:04:04,065 --> 00:04:09,555 with the guys at the firehouse and, you know, that, that was just how we rolled. 52 00:04:09,555 --> 00:04:12,675 It was also a very different time in this world. 53 00:04:13,125 --> 00:04:16,845 I, you know, was raised in the seventies and the eighties and 54 00:04:16,845 --> 00:04:22,245 so, you know, it was before all the drunk driving stuff, you know? 55 00:04:22,245 --> 00:04:27,225 And, and you know, cops would find him, the cops in the town would find him 56 00:04:27,225 --> 00:04:31,995 in the middle of a cornfield in his car and they'd, they'd lead him home 57 00:04:31,995 --> 00:04:34,415 while he drove his car home, you know? 58 00:04:34,495 --> 00:04:39,615 And I mean, there were all kinds of crazy stories like that. 59 00:04:40,035 --> 00:04:46,125 Uh, but, but that's very tumultuous to grow up in that. 60 00:04:46,725 --> 00:04:53,190 And, um, and then I very quickly became addicted myself. 61 00:04:53,909 --> 00:05:00,420 Um, and I don't know, I can tell you that my food addiction, my addiction to 62 00:05:00,420 --> 00:05:03,600 food, I believe I was born with that. 63 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:11,490 I do not remember a time in my life when I was not using food, uh, as a comfort. 64 00:05:11,490 --> 00:05:14,955 I mean, food was my best friend right up until it turned on me. 65 00:05:15,695 --> 00:05:23,205 Um, and then I started drinking pretty early as well, um, and using 66 00:05:23,205 --> 00:05:25,935 the excuse that I'm having fun. 67 00:05:26,295 --> 00:05:29,534 My dad's a jerk, but I'm having fun, you know? 68 00:05:29,534 --> 00:05:36,675 And, uh, that very quickly became a problem and the two addictions 69 00:05:36,705 --> 00:05:39,135 really, uh, played off of each other. 70 00:05:39,495 --> 00:05:43,455 You know, because my, um, my food addiction had a lot of that up 71 00:05:43,455 --> 00:05:48,914 and down yo-yo dieting and, um, I tried to be anorexic, I couldn't do 72 00:05:48,914 --> 00:05:50,685 that because I love food too much. 73 00:05:51,044 --> 00:05:55,065 You know, um, but I even tried to be bulimic because when I was in, 74 00:05:55,245 --> 00:05:59,175 in high school, they, they had a lot of TV movies about girls who 75 00:05:59,175 --> 00:06:01,245 were bulimic and people helped them. 76 00:06:01,245 --> 00:06:04,635 And people didn't look at those girls like there was something 77 00:06:04,635 --> 00:06:05,835 wrong with them, you know? 78 00:06:05,835 --> 00:06:09,945 Whereas I was just overweight and nobody was helping me, you know? 79 00:06:10,005 --> 00:06:15,929 Um, and so I try to become bulimic and I, I, I couldn't, I don't know if I 80 00:06:15,929 --> 00:06:20,549 don't have a gag reflex or what, but I, I couldn't make myself throw up. 81 00:06:21,239 --> 00:06:26,190 And then I discovered early on in my drinking career that when you drank 82 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:28,109 to extremes, you would throw up. 83 00:06:28,919 --> 00:06:32,340 And so, uh, it was, it was a nightmare. 84 00:06:32,340 --> 00:06:34,229 You can see where I'm going with this, right? 85 00:06:34,289 --> 00:06:38,760 Uh, and then in the middle of all of it, uh, was me trying to find a 86 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,859 husband who was nothing like my father. 87 00:06:42,270 --> 00:06:46,289 And that was an absolute disaster because every guy I went out 88 00:06:46,289 --> 00:06:47,760 with was exactly like him. 89 00:06:48,239 --> 00:06:49,710 You know, because that's what we do, 90 00:06:49,710 --> 00:06:56,775 we, we go for people who, who are, um, who are, we're comfortable with. 91 00:06:56,925 --> 00:06:59,145 And so that's a really long introduction. 92 00:06:59,145 --> 00:07:03,525 But see what happens is I start talking about this and then I, I just keep going. 93 00:07:03,525 --> 00:07:08,865 But that's where all of this, you know, my, the first time I remember writing 94 00:07:08,865 --> 00:07:13,605 and receiving comfort from writing, uh, was when I was in fourth grade. 95 00:07:13,605 --> 00:07:20,085 Mrs. Gehrig had us write our first poems and, uh, that was it for 96 00:07:20,085 --> 00:07:22,575 me, I was hooked and I used it. 97 00:07:22,575 --> 00:07:27,045 I rarely shared it with people until I was in, in like, later 98 00:07:27,045 --> 00:07:28,515 in high school and college. 99 00:07:29,025 --> 00:07:33,255 Um, 'cause you know, I was afraid nothing was ever good enough, you know? 100 00:07:33,255 --> 00:07:36,375 And unless it was perfect, I was not gonna put it out there. 101 00:07:36,975 --> 00:07:41,295 Uh, and there's no grade level for poetry. 102 00:07:41,295 --> 00:07:48,795 I mean, it's very, um, artistic and, you know, I was using it in a way 103 00:07:48,795 --> 00:07:55,335 that was very vulnerable because I was, um, I was really putting 104 00:07:55,335 --> 00:07:57,434 myself out there in my poetry. 105 00:07:57,854 --> 00:08:01,755 And more, what I've discovered now, I'm actually, one of the books that 106 00:08:01,755 --> 00:08:05,895 I'm working on now is a collection of poetry and what I'm, it, I'm 107 00:08:05,895 --> 00:08:09,974 calling The, The Collection Of Poetry, This is how God speaks to me. 108 00:08:10,515 --> 00:08:15,315 Because what I'm recognizing is that as I'm going back and reading now, 109 00:08:15,315 --> 00:08:20,744 these are poems that I've been posting on my blog since 2017, and what 110 00:08:20,744 --> 00:08:25,934 I'm seeing is that there's a lot of wisdom in this poetry that I know at 111 00:08:25,934 --> 00:08:27,765 that time in my life I didn't have. 112 00:08:29,234 --> 00:08:34,664 So I know that that was God giving me direction before I 113 00:08:34,664 --> 00:08:37,230 even knew that it was direction. 114 00:08:37,230 --> 00:08:38,505 Do, do you know what I mean? 115 00:08:38,505 --> 00:08:43,275 Like that, that sounds a little crazy, but that's, so that's 116 00:08:43,275 --> 00:08:44,415 a really long introduction. 117 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:48,930 That, that's all right. 118 00:08:48,990 --> 00:08:54,180 We, we love long introductions here at the Dead America Podcast. 119 00:08:54,180 --> 00:08:58,680 And the thing that captures me the most is, you were raised 120 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,570 very similar to me in the time. 121 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:09,900 However, my parents were, uh, partiers, drunkards. 122 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:18,210 And, you know, the, the one thing that stands out is, I, I received my 123 00:09:18,660 --> 00:09:24,210 learner's permit, driver's license, you know, at the age of sixteen back then. 124 00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:32,100 And this, this took us on a journey because all of the drunks climbed 125 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:39,600 in the back of the truck and two up front with me driving them around. 126 00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:45,900 And an Idaho state trooper, you know, he pulls us over. 127 00:09:46,470 --> 00:09:52,319 Everybody's just wasted and here I am thinking we're all 128 00:09:52,319 --> 00:09:54,030 going to the hoosegow here. 129 00:09:54,390 --> 00:10:03,420 And, uh, the Idaho State police officer, you know, said, What is happening here? 130 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:14,010 And ended up, uh, he, he escorted us on our way home and made sure we 131 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:18,060 made it and that's as far as it went. 132 00:10:18,060 --> 00:10:20,610 So the time has really changed. 133 00:10:20,970 --> 00:10:25,710 But that timeframe that you're talking about, the seventies, 134 00:10:25,710 --> 00:10:30,300 early seventies into the eighties, eighties, I was, you know, getting 135 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:33,840 married and moving on to real life. 136 00:10:35,625 --> 00:10:42,375 That really developed me in that timeframe where alcohol was prevalent, cigarettes. 137 00:10:42,675 --> 00:10:48,135 You know, smoking in the grocery store with ashes hanging over the, 138 00:10:49,064 --> 00:10:52,334 uh, produce, it used to freak me out. 139 00:10:52,334 --> 00:10:54,704 It's like, What is this? 140 00:10:55,364 --> 00:11:03,885 And now that I have control over my life, I look back and think, Wow, no wonder I 141 00:11:03,885 --> 00:11:07,604 was so addicted and strung out on things. 142 00:11:07,604 --> 00:11:15,795 And so how much did that timeframe play in the way you handled things? 143 00:11:15,795 --> 00:11:20,385 Because we didn't have a lot of help during that time period. 144 00:11:21,555 --> 00:11:22,065 Right. 145 00:11:22,275 --> 00:11:26,715 If there, it was not, you know, there were no school psychiatrists, there 146 00:11:26,715 --> 00:11:32,595 were no, you know, like you maybe had a school nurse if you were lucky, you know? 147 00:11:32,655 --> 00:11:39,645 Um, and you know, but I remember, I remember going to my Girl Scout leader, 148 00:11:40,275 --> 00:11:45,735 um, and this is, you know, like, and asking her about certain things that I 149 00:11:45,735 --> 00:11:47,445 should have been asking my mom about. 150 00:11:48,525 --> 00:11:55,455 And it wasn't because my mom wasn't a loving woman, it was just by the time I 151 00:11:55,455 --> 00:12:01,335 came along, like I said, I'm the youngest of four and my mom also had my father 152 00:12:01,335 --> 00:12:03,765 who was like a giant toddler, you know? 153 00:12:03,765 --> 00:12:06,135 I mean, he was just a train wreck, you know? 154 00:12:06,135 --> 00:12:13,170 I mean, and so by the time I came along and I was, if I wasn't a mistake, I was 155 00:12:13,170 --> 00:12:15,990 a surprise, you know, um, not planned. 156 00:12:16,530 --> 00:12:19,680 And, um, you know, so she was tired. 157 00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:21,449 She was, she was tired. 158 00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:28,260 And my, um, how I coped really, my sister, who is, uh, the oldest in my 159 00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:34,199 family, she's six years older than I am, and she pretty much, uh, you know, 160 00:12:34,229 --> 00:12:37,740 I don't think she did this consciously, but she took me on as her own. 161 00:12:38,715 --> 00:12:46,305 And she, and to this day, she is like, she's my parent, she's my best friend, 162 00:12:46,305 --> 00:12:52,335 she's, she's the one who came to me when my drinking was completely outta control. 163 00:12:52,425 --> 00:12:56,475 Of all my family, she's the only one who's ever really called me out. 164 00:12:57,135 --> 00:13:01,665 And I know that was hard for her to do that because I mean, we 165 00:13:01,665 --> 00:13:05,715 are, we are tight, you know, and I'm, I'm like her baby, you know? 166 00:13:05,715 --> 00:13:08,625 I mean, it's weird to say that, I'm fifty-five years old, but, 167 00:13:09,015 --> 00:13:12,855 you know, I, I am like her baby when I graduated from seminary. 168 00:13:12,855 --> 00:13:17,055 I mean, I think she's more proud in the picture than I am, you 169 00:13:17,055 --> 00:13:19,935 know, because I finally am clean. 170 00:13:20,625 --> 00:13:27,315 You know, I did, it took me about a year after she, she asked me or talked to me 171 00:13:27,315 --> 00:13:29,655 about my alcohol to do anything about it. 172 00:13:29,685 --> 00:13:33,525 I mean, that's how much addiction really takes over your life is it doesn't even 173 00:13:33,525 --> 00:13:36,045 matter who's begging you to get well. 174 00:13:36,465 --> 00:13:42,795 But she, she took, she took me under her wing and she took me everywhere 175 00:13:42,795 --> 00:13:45,795 with her as soon as she got her license. 176 00:13:45,824 --> 00:13:50,055 And she, I mean, I knew all her friends, I was like everybody's little sister because 177 00:13:50,055 --> 00:13:55,185 she took me outta the house whenever she could get me outta the house, you know? 178 00:13:55,185 --> 00:13:59,045 And, and my siblings in between, we have two, 179 00:13:59,435 --> 00:14:01,574 I have a sister and a brother in between us. 180 00:14:02,115 --> 00:14:05,775 They were sort of like the escape artists. 181 00:14:05,775 --> 00:14:09,975 They were very smart, they were both really, really intelligent. 182 00:14:10,454 --> 00:14:13,335 Not that we aren't, but they were, you know, like my brother's 183 00:14:13,335 --> 00:14:16,515 crazy, IT math, you know, smart. 184 00:14:16,515 --> 00:14:18,615 That makes my head hurt when I even think about it. 185 00:14:18,615 --> 00:14:22,365 And then my other sister's a doctor, you know, they're very 186 00:14:22,365 --> 00:14:24,285 much overachieving, you know? 187 00:14:24,765 --> 00:14:30,415 And, um, so they, when they both went to college, they pretty much never came home. 188 00:14:30,845 --> 00:14:34,215 You know, they, they stayed there in the summers, they, you know, and that's 189 00:14:34,215 --> 00:14:36,015 kind of how they were with school. 190 00:14:36,105 --> 00:14:40,545 You know, they always had something going on in some activity or whatever. 191 00:14:40,785 --> 00:14:44,145 And while my older sister and I both played sports, that's kind 192 00:14:44,145 --> 00:14:49,305 of where it sort of, we weren't as involved, let's say, as they were. 193 00:14:49,365 --> 00:14:52,485 And so we just hung out, we did everything together. 194 00:14:52,485 --> 00:14:56,505 And, um, so she, she really was, you know, when I think about 195 00:14:56,505 --> 00:14:59,085 how did I cope with that time? 196 00:14:59,475 --> 00:15:06,375 I think it was, she coped with it by, you know, taking me away from the house. 197 00:15:06,435 --> 00:15:08,895 Um, and, and I wrote a lot. 198 00:15:08,955 --> 00:15:14,055 I wrote a lot, especially when I got to college and I had nowhere to go with 199 00:15:14,055 --> 00:15:19,425 this stuff because everybody, I was looking around me and thinking, you 200 00:15:19,425 --> 00:15:24,315 know, basically I never told anybody that my dad told me I was a mistake. 201 00:15:24,915 --> 00:15:29,535 Like, that was a, that was a secret that I held inside of me 'cause I 202 00:15:29,535 --> 00:15:34,575 thought if other people know this, then they're gonna discard me too. 203 00:15:35,505 --> 00:15:42,945 And as much as that harmed my relationship with God, and this is 204 00:15:42,945 --> 00:15:50,445 gonna sound crazy, um, it actually made me feel closer to Jesus. 205 00:15:51,420 --> 00:15:56,100 Because, and, and I talk about this a little bit in my book, because 206 00:15:56,460 --> 00:16:01,800 how I looked at it, I don't know if you remember, um, or if you ever saw 207 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,570 it, but there was a miniseries on television in the seventies and they 208 00:16:06,570 --> 00:16:08,820 would play it every year around Easter. 209 00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:14,040 It was called Jesus of Nazareth, and it was from the birth of 210 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,020 Jesus to the resurrection. 211 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:20,610 And we had just gotten, I'm really gonna date myself now, 212 00:16:20,610 --> 00:16:24,030 we had just gotten a beta max. 213 00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:26,730 Do you remember the beta before VHS? 214 00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:33,600 And so I had, I had recorded it, uh, I think I was probably like 215 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,190 ten years old, and I recorded it on like four tapes 'cause it took a 216 00:16:38,190 --> 00:16:40,320 lot of those tapes to record stuff. 217 00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:44,790 And I would just watch it over and over and over again. 218 00:16:45,675 --> 00:16:54,645 And in it, the guy who played Jesus was so calm and, um, just 219 00:16:54,645 --> 00:17:00,705 his presence on screen was very, uh, it just filled me with peace. 220 00:17:01,425 --> 00:17:05,984 And the part, and it was, and, and actually if you've seen the 221 00:17:05,984 --> 00:17:10,575 passion of the Christ, you know what the beating looked like for real. 222 00:17:10,635 --> 00:17:14,745 And so when I look back at Jesus of Nazareth now, I 223 00:17:14,745 --> 00:17:15,915 think, well, that was nothing. 224 00:17:15,915 --> 00:17:19,785 But at the time it was pretty violent what they were showing you. 225 00:17:19,785 --> 00:17:23,234 It was, it really was nothing compared to what we see today. 226 00:17:23,745 --> 00:17:26,595 But when I was a kid, it was huge. 227 00:17:26,625 --> 00:17:32,895 And what I saw was Jesus' father was abandoning him and beating him, just 228 00:17:32,895 --> 00:17:39,045 the way my father wasn't, was abandoning me and punishing me and beating me. 229 00:17:39,045 --> 00:17:44,205 And so that's how I related it in my diseased little brain 230 00:17:44,925 --> 00:17:47,805 and, and it kept me connected. 231 00:17:47,805 --> 00:17:51,735 Like I never, as much as I ran away from the church, I ran away 232 00:17:51,735 --> 00:17:56,805 from God, I always loved Jesus and I knew that Jesus loved me. 233 00:17:57,735 --> 00:18:03,285 And, you know, I remember when I said that in seminary and, uh, my one 234 00:18:03,285 --> 00:18:08,295 professor was just like, it was like the most horrible thing he'd ever heard. 235 00:18:08,535 --> 00:18:10,335 And I'm like, No, no, you don't understand. 236 00:18:10,335 --> 00:18:14,115 This is what kept me connected, This is a good thing, you know? 237 00:18:14,175 --> 00:18:17,535 Um, because God uses everything. 238 00:18:18,585 --> 00:18:19,575 That's how I see it. 239 00:18:21,255 --> 00:18:21,715 That's right. 240 00:18:22,665 --> 00:18:22,905 Yeah. 241 00:18:23,554 --> 00:18:26,070 You know, I, I relate well with that. 242 00:18:26,129 --> 00:18:31,830 You know, through all of the disasters I've been through, the thick and 243 00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:38,699 the thin, it, it's apparent that Jesus himself was there with me. 244 00:18:39,159 --> 00:18:44,520 You know, I often think about the poem, Footsteps. 245 00:18:44,879 --> 00:18:52,350 Where they're walking down the beach and you see one set of footprints, 246 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,070 and then it turns into two. 247 00:18:56,850 --> 00:19:07,200 And he, he says, Well, why, why were you not there with me all this time? 248 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:10,379 Those are the times I was packing you. 249 00:19:11,010 --> 00:19:13,410 And, you know, 250 00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:22,890 as I studied and researched you, there was a portion of your life 251 00:19:22,890 --> 00:19:29,040 where you kind of just broke it down and said, Hey, enough's enough. 252 00:19:29,250 --> 00:19:35,340 And I, I had that moment where I had the f.u. fight with God himself. 253 00:19:35,790 --> 00:19:41,310 I found myself homeless, shoving all of my possessions into this 254 00:19:41,310 --> 00:19:51,060 little box storage unit, and my wife, my dog, we were just alone. 255 00:19:51,060 --> 00:19:56,040 And I didn't know what I was going to do, where we were going to 256 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,140 go, how we were going to survive. 257 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:05,790 And I, I remember having that, Hey, what are you doing to me? 258 00:20:05,790 --> 00:20:07,110 Why am I here? 259 00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:15,985 And, you know, it, it, it took me to the place of realizing that all 260 00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:20,205 of my life, I was living for myself. 261 00:20:20,895 --> 00:20:25,695 And He broke me, He broke me into little pieces, rubble. 262 00:20:26,175 --> 00:20:36,074 And that rock I was, now He put that into His own form and He formed concrete. 263 00:20:36,705 --> 00:20:40,155 And now my life with Christ is solid. 264 00:20:40,574 --> 00:20:47,445 And I, I'm here on the podcast and I speak to non-believers, I talk to, you 265 00:20:47,445 --> 00:20:53,865 know, people that just, people shouldn't talk to in the eyes of Christians, 266 00:20:54,135 --> 00:20:55,875 but that's where they're wrong. 267 00:20:55,995 --> 00:21:04,215 You know, Jesus spent His time with these broken people and He, He showed 268 00:21:04,215 --> 00:21:08,594 them how to live and this is important. 269 00:21:08,594 --> 00:21:15,254 People so often focus on their own self and its selfish. 270 00:21:15,975 --> 00:21:22,485 When we open our eyes and we discover we all live here together 271 00:21:22,485 --> 00:21:27,735 and it's all working together, this is truly when we're reborn. 272 00:21:28,245 --> 00:21:33,735 And when that moment hits, what was that like for you? 273 00:21:36,285 --> 00:21:39,495 Oh, well, it was, um, 274 00:21:41,775 --> 00:21:46,495 wow, that's, it was a living hell at first. 275 00:21:47,345 --> 00:21:57,135 Uh, you know, I mean, because I was, um, not only was I an addict, okay, uh, 276 00:21:57,165 --> 00:22:04,065 very actively food addicted, alcohol addicted, uh, but I was also the other 277 00:22:04,065 --> 00:22:13,395 side of the coin, which is that crazy codependent, um, you know, just trying 278 00:22:13,395 --> 00:22:18,345 to manipulate all the addicts around me to do what I wanted them to do. 279 00:22:19,095 --> 00:22:24,855 Um, with the people pleasing, and the, you know, manipulation, and the, all of 280 00:22:24,855 --> 00:22:29,804 that underhanded stuff that you can't even really point at when you're, you 281 00:22:29,804 --> 00:22:34,425 know, it's, it's, it's so much easier to point at the food and the booze 282 00:22:34,725 --> 00:22:36,765 and go, There's your problem, Jessica. 283 00:22:36,945 --> 00:22:40,155 Put those things aside and all will be well, you know? 284 00:22:40,635 --> 00:22:44,655 And the problem with that is that you remove those things and what 285 00:22:44,655 --> 00:22:48,255 happens is all the things that you've been, for me anyway, all the things 286 00:22:48,255 --> 00:22:54,255 I was pushing down with those things started to rise to the surface. 287 00:22:54,645 --> 00:23:01,665 The trauma of my childhood, the abuse, the mental, more the mental abuse and 288 00:23:01,665 --> 00:23:03,619 the spiritual abuse than the physical. 289 00:23:03,619 --> 00:23:03,945 Like, 290 00:23:03,945 --> 00:23:09,345 I would've much rather my father beat the crap outta me than any of the things he 291 00:23:09,345 --> 00:23:14,940 said to me because I can tell you that the things he said to me still play. 292 00:23:15,629 --> 00:23:20,040 Like even though I've gone through, in my early recovery, when I, once I put 293 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:27,030 the food and the booze down, I, I, um, I had a significant amount of years with 294 00:23:27,030 --> 00:23:34,950 a really, really gifted man, uh, who was an addictions counselor and he helped 295 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:44,100 me to, to kind of like uncover all those things and recognize that not only was 296 00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:49,800 I the problem in that I was the addict, but I was also playing the victim. 297 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:56,639 I enjoyed the victim role to a really weird extent. 298 00:23:56,639 --> 00:24:01,409 You know, like it, it was comfortable, I knew how to be the victim. 299 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:08,220 And I'll never forget when he said to me, oh, this blew my mind, 300 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:13,120 he said, you know, Jessica, he said, You're a victim until you're eighteen 301 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,690 and after that, you're a volunteer. 302 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:21,659 And you've been volunteering, you've been volunteering for a long time. 303 00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:26,580 It's time for you to take control of your life. 304 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,590 And by that I mean, not manipulating the crap out of everyone around 305 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:36,690 you, but putting the onus on you to be responsible for your feelings. 306 00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:40,110 You know, to not, you know, when I would, I would say things like, 307 00:24:40,110 --> 00:24:42,060 Well, he made me feel that way. 308 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:47,070 And he'd go, Nobody, nobody has that much power over you unless 309 00:24:47,070 --> 00:24:49,800 you give it to them, you know? 310 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:57,090 And it is so true when you start, when you just change your mind a little bit in that 311 00:24:57,090 --> 00:24:59,820 direction, but I'm, I'm getting ahead. 312 00:24:59,820 --> 00:25:04,800 You know, the living hell came, uh, I, I am, I, I don't know if this is what 313 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,520 you were referencing, but, and I talk about this in the very beginning of 314 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,389 the book, when Jesus appeared to me, 315 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:21,270 um, I was a couple years out of college and just really in the throes of my 316 00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:28,620 alcoholism and was, um, going back to my college campus to party and, 317 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,699 because that's what you do when you're a professional, you go back and you party 318 00:25:32,699 --> 00:25:37,889 with your college friends all the time, and it was, it was a January night, 319 00:25:37,889 --> 00:25:44,310 it was freezing cold and, um, I was outside of this party by myself smoking 320 00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:47,130 a cigarette and I was hating my life. 321 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,420 My friends were getting married, um, some of them were even having babies 322 00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:57,540 at that point, you know, and I just looked up at the sky and saw nothing. 323 00:25:57,540 --> 00:26:00,480 But, you know, it was an absolutely gorgeous, clear 324 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,430 night and a gazillion stars 325 00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:07,380 and all I saw was my hatred for God and what He had done to me. 326 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,760 You know, I was His victim, you know, and I let Him have it. 327 00:26:11,820 --> 00:26:16,890 And I told Him everything, I yelled at Him and I asked Him 328 00:26:16,890 --> 00:26:18,630 when it was gonna be my turn. 329 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,440 You know, when did I get to have a life that was wonderful. 330 00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:35,399 And, uh, I had this moment of warmth, uh, come over me and I knew with every ounce 331 00:26:35,399 --> 00:26:41,159 of my being that if I turned to my left, Jesus would be standing right next to me. 332 00:26:41,159 --> 00:26:47,010 Like just standing there physically, not a spirit, not an abarition, just Him there 333 00:26:47,010 --> 00:26:50,520 ready to hold me and hug me and love me. 334 00:26:50,969 --> 00:26:58,260 And it immediately terrified me and I ran, like it went from that 335 00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:03,929 warmth, gorgeous, beautiful feeling within a nanosecond to terror, 336 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,320 and I ran back into the party. 337 00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:16,260 And the next, I wanna say it was about six or seven years were a living hell. 338 00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:21,719 Uh, before that was shitty, let's say, okay. 339 00:27:22,290 --> 00:27:31,635 Um, this was the separation from God in that time and I get 340 00:27:31,635 --> 00:27:33,495 emotional when I think about this. 341 00:27:36,135 --> 00:27:44,395 Um, it was so much a desert, I, I don't know how else to describe it. 342 00:27:44,395 --> 00:27:49,215 It was so empty and my life was so 343 00:27:52,425 --> 00:27:58,095 lonely and isolated and, um, it was horrible. 344 00:27:58,095 --> 00:28:05,415 I was suicidal, I was, um, in fact, at one point during that, a very close 345 00:28:05,415 --> 00:28:08,565 friend convinced me to go get a cat. 346 00:28:09,045 --> 00:28:13,920 She's like, I need to take you to get a, to adopt a cat, you need 347 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,660 to have an animal in your house. 348 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560 You know, like she, she didn't know what else to do, you know? 349 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:26,910 And we went, and this pathetic cat, uh, she was just this pathetic little kitten, 350 00:28:26,910 --> 00:28:29,525 she had been thrown out of a car. 351 00:28:29,915 --> 00:28:35,255 And she had, like, she still, she was, she was so fresh into the, um, humane 352 00:28:35,255 --> 00:28:40,655 society that she still had like little oil and grease spots on her from having 353 00:28:40,655 --> 00:28:47,105 been, you know, thrown on the highway and miraculously saved by some samaritan 354 00:28:47,105 --> 00:28:49,295 who brought her into the Humane Society. 355 00:28:49,895 --> 00:28:52,145 And she ended up, I just took her home. 356 00:28:52,145 --> 00:28:54,395 I was like, That's it, that's the one, I want her. 357 00:28:54,815 --> 00:28:58,955 And I remember the first night thinking to myself, What did I do? 358 00:28:58,955 --> 00:29:00,605 I can't take care of this animal. 359 00:29:00,815 --> 00:29:04,775 You know, 'cause you know how kittens are, she's just nonstop screaming, you know? 360 00:29:05,585 --> 00:29:09,365 And that was the only time I ever thought I can't take care of her. 361 00:29:09,365 --> 00:29:14,345 We, I, I mean, I, she became the reason I lived. 362 00:29:15,335 --> 00:29:17,525 She literally became the reason I lived. 363 00:29:18,095 --> 00:29:26,685 And it was, it was, uh, in fact, there was one moment, when she was probably 364 00:29:26,685 --> 00:29:30,794 about three or four years old, when I was seriously considering, you 365 00:29:30,794 --> 00:29:32,175 know, like, How am I gonna do this? 366 00:29:32,175 --> 00:29:36,615 'Cause at that point I was significantly overweight, the food 367 00:29:36,615 --> 00:29:41,355 had turned on me during this time, and I couldn't stop eating it. 368 00:29:41,385 --> 00:29:44,655 But it wasn't doing anything for me anymore. 369 00:29:44,655 --> 00:29:48,855 Like I, I, I wanted to stop and I couldn't. 370 00:29:49,469 --> 00:29:53,054 I, I, I, it, it's so hard to describe that to people. 371 00:29:53,564 --> 00:29:59,774 Um, but I, in fact, I've, I've shared this with my husband who's also in recovery, 372 00:29:59,804 --> 00:30:04,544 and it, he, it, it baffles him because he's in recovery for alcohol addiction. 373 00:30:05,205 --> 00:30:08,534 And when he eats and he gets full, he's, you know, he's just like, 374 00:30:08,534 --> 00:30:11,745 I don't understand how you could keep eating if you were full. 375 00:30:11,745 --> 00:30:14,385 And I'm like, I don't know how to explain it to you. 376 00:30:15,014 --> 00:30:19,935 I, there were nights when I couldn't lay down in bed 'cause I 377 00:30:19,935 --> 00:30:21,735 was afraid I was going to choke. 378 00:30:22,275 --> 00:30:27,105 That's how much I had eaten and it, and there, it was not digesting fast enough. 379 00:30:27,825 --> 00:30:30,585 And, um, so I mean, it was bad. 380 00:30:30,585 --> 00:30:34,245 And I was close to 300 pounds, I'm only five four. 381 00:30:34,815 --> 00:30:39,465 And I just, I was thinking, How can I kill myself? 382 00:30:39,795 --> 00:30:42,195 Like I was looking around my apartment thinking, How can I 383 00:30:42,195 --> 00:30:45,945 kill myself so that it's not a burden for them to carry me out? 384 00:30:46,185 --> 00:30:47,655 Like, How can I do this? 385 00:30:48,165 --> 00:30:49,395 You know, who were them? 386 00:30:49,395 --> 00:30:50,715 I don't even know who I was. 387 00:30:50,745 --> 00:30:52,155 You know, the firemen, I guess. 388 00:30:53,175 --> 00:30:56,835 But these are the thoughts that were going through my head and I'm having 389 00:30:56,835 --> 00:31:02,685 this little inner dialogue in my head and, please don't think I'm crazy, but 390 00:31:02,685 --> 00:31:07,345 I swear my cat walked into the room and she stood up on her back legs. 391 00:31:07,365 --> 00:31:10,335 She didn't really, but this is what, this is what I remember. 392 00:31:10,335 --> 00:31:14,625 She stood up on her back legs and put her front legs on her hips and was just 393 00:31:14,625 --> 00:31:16,995 like, Well, what about me if you do this? 394 00:31:16,995 --> 00:31:22,545 You know, like that was, she communicated to me, I need you. 395 00:31:25,215 --> 00:31:27,555 And that was it, I never thought about it again. 396 00:31:28,065 --> 00:31:33,015 It was probably six months to a year after that that I got into recovery. 397 00:31:33,735 --> 00:31:37,935 Um, but during that time, uh, and I got into recovery 'cause a 398 00:31:37,935 --> 00:31:40,695 counselor I was seeing suggested it. 399 00:31:40,695 --> 00:31:44,865 And, and she, she said, You know, I wanna be able to help you 400 00:31:44,865 --> 00:31:49,665 but all these issues with your life, none of it is gonna take hold no 401 00:31:49,665 --> 00:31:53,235 matter what work we do until you get these addictions under control. 402 00:31:54,675 --> 00:31:58,695 And because I, I complained all the time about the fact 403 00:31:58,695 --> 00:31:59,715 that I couldn't stop eating. 404 00:32:00,750 --> 00:32:06,840 And she sent me to recovery and I knew from the moment I walked in that door, 405 00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:12,389 and I talk about this in the book, in hindsight, I know that Jesus knew 406 00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:17,489 I couldn't look directly at him so he spoke to me through these women. 407 00:32:18,449 --> 00:32:22,260 Because that night, I remember there were three women at that 408 00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:25,260 meeting that I remember so clearly. 409 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:29,760 And the more I remember, you know, the further away I get from it, the more 410 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:36,270 clarity I have on that first meeting that it was, Jesus was using them. 411 00:32:36,270 --> 00:32:40,354 I'm getting chills telling you this, like He was literally using those people. 412 00:32:40,354 --> 00:32:44,459 Whether they believed in Him or not, doesn't matter, He 413 00:32:44,459 --> 00:32:47,250 was using them to talk to me. 414 00:32:47,699 --> 00:32:52,770 Because the things that they said were exactly what I needed. 415 00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:57,660 The first one, I walked in the room and it was before the meeting started, and she 416 00:32:58,020 --> 00:33:02,280 was sitting in a group of women and they were all together laughing and everything. 417 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,920 So of course I went and sat on the other end of the table 418 00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:08,490 'cause, you know, I'm not, nobody likes me, so I'll sit over here. 419 00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:10,860 You know, I had all these ideas in my head. 420 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:17,340 Well, she was just this thin, pretty young woman, and she got up from the group, left 421 00:33:17,340 --> 00:33:20,820 the group while they were still laughing, and came over and sat next to me and 422 00:33:20,820 --> 00:33:23,130 talked to me until the meeting started 423 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:25,680 like I was important. 424 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,680 And I was just flabbergasted that this pretty person wanted 425 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,180 to talk to me, you know? 426 00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:38,850 And then the woman who shared her story that night, she sent 427 00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:40,439 her pictures around the room. 428 00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:44,159 'Cause she's this tall, skinny, blonde woman and here I am, this fat, 429 00:33:44,159 --> 00:33:46,919 dumpy, dark haired girl, you know? 430 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,960 And, and, and I was just thinking she was saying all the right things, but I 431 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,480 was thinking someone must have given her a script because she was never like me. 432 00:33:57,990 --> 00:34:02,610 And I got this little photo album of pictures of her as she was telling her 433 00:34:02,610 --> 00:34:09,239 story and she was exactly like me, all these pictures of her obese and with 434 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,670 that dead look in her eyes that I felt. 435 00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:18,270 And then as I was leaving the meeting, this woman who I ended 436 00:34:18,270 --> 00:34:23,310 up calling crazy Jean over time, she was, uh, she's in heaven now 437 00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:29,324 so she doesn't care that I said her name out loud, but she, um, she killed 438 00:34:29,324 --> 00:34:31,544 herself getting across the room to me. 439 00:34:32,205 --> 00:34:36,585 And she, I don't remember a lot of what she said other than she 440 00:34:36,585 --> 00:34:38,504 showed me her pictures also. 441 00:34:38,504 --> 00:34:41,895 She said, I wanted to show you I've always carried my pictures with 442 00:34:41,895 --> 00:34:45,674 me too 'cause it's hard to believe that everybody sitting in here who's 443 00:34:45,674 --> 00:34:49,304 in skinny bodies actually was once like you and you need to see it. 444 00:34:49,754 --> 00:34:55,154 And, and so she showed me a couple of her pictures and then she said, um, as I was 445 00:34:55,154 --> 00:34:59,055 trying to get away from her, 'cause as much as I knew I was in the right place, I 446 00:34:59,055 --> 00:35:01,125 also wanted to get the hell out of there. 447 00:35:01,605 --> 00:35:03,944 I was like, I can't, this is way too much. 448 00:35:03,975 --> 00:35:04,935 I can't handle this. 449 00:35:05,355 --> 00:35:10,904 And, and she, as I was walking away, she called my name and, which 450 00:35:11,625 --> 00:35:15,044 shocked me because I had only said my name way back at the beginning 451 00:35:15,044 --> 00:35:17,955 of the meeting when they asked if it, it was anybody's first meeting. 452 00:35:18,524 --> 00:35:23,384 And so I turned around and she looked dead in my eyes and I know this was 453 00:35:23,384 --> 00:35:27,495 Jesus looking right in my eyes and she said, Jessica, please come back. 454 00:35:28,335 --> 00:35:30,345 I really, really want you to come back. 455 00:35:33,615 --> 00:35:34,544 I never left. 456 00:35:34,544 --> 00:35:39,015 I never left the program no matter what was happening, no matter how 457 00:35:39,884 --> 00:35:44,265 angry I was, no matter how much the people annoyed me, because it's, 458 00:35:44,294 --> 00:35:45,794 it's kind of like church, you know? 459 00:35:45,794 --> 00:35:48,435 There's always somebody that's gonna be annoying, you know? 460 00:35:48,435 --> 00:35:50,685 It doesn't matter, you know? 461 00:35:50,685 --> 00:35:56,415 And, but I just kept going back there and getting exactly what I needed. 462 00:35:56,805 --> 00:36:01,245 Nobody made me be religious, you know? 463 00:36:01,245 --> 00:36:04,845 All they said to me was, and that's why I named the book Higher Powered, 464 00:36:05,205 --> 00:36:08,595 all they said was, You gotta have a power that's greater than you. 465 00:36:08,625 --> 00:36:14,265 We don't care if it's the God of your childhood, we don't care who it is, you 466 00:36:14,265 --> 00:36:16,365 know, just don't make it another person. 467 00:36:16,815 --> 00:36:22,095 You know, if it's the, but for a long time, whenever I would hear the 468 00:36:22,125 --> 00:36:28,125 word God, I would think good, orderly direction because that's what I was 469 00:36:28,125 --> 00:36:30,465 getting from this community of people. 470 00:36:30,975 --> 00:36:35,205 I was getting good orderly direction and that was my higher 471 00:36:35,205 --> 00:36:37,515 power for a really long time. 472 00:36:38,445 --> 00:36:42,045 You know, until I was able to once again, look Jesus in the 473 00:36:42,045 --> 00:36:45,015 face and say, You're it man. 474 00:36:46,185 --> 00:36:48,975 You know, you're, you're my numero uno guy. 475 00:36:48,975 --> 00:36:53,715 But it took me a while 'cause I was still, I had so much shame. 476 00:36:54,075 --> 00:36:59,955 I had so much shame for the things I had done in my active addiction and, and 477 00:37:00,404 --> 00:37:02,715 just the horrible thoughts that I had. 478 00:37:02,715 --> 00:37:08,445 And I mean, I could go on and on forever, but that's when, yeah, 479 00:37:08,445 --> 00:37:09,884 that's when it turned for me. 480 00:37:11,055 --> 00:37:11,415 Yeah. 481 00:37:11,895 --> 00:37:12,375 Yeah. 482 00:37:12,404 --> 00:37:16,995 You know, it's, it's a lot to unpack, but it's, it's very 483 00:37:16,995 --> 00:37:19,424 important what you outlined there. 484 00:37:20,654 --> 00:37:25,395 Addicts are addicts, it doesn't matter if it's food, or booze, or whatever. 485 00:37:25,395 --> 00:37:28,830 It's up here inside our head. 486 00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:34,890 And once we realize, oh, I control that. 487 00:37:36,330 --> 00:37:43,410 That's, that's really something that a lot of us need to remember, we control that. 488 00:37:44,340 --> 00:37:52,650 And I used to be ashamed of my past life too, because I did some horrendous things. 489 00:37:52,650 --> 00:37:56,460 I mean, I, I danced about doing horrendous things. 490 00:37:57,150 --> 00:38:05,430 But now that I, I'm about to turn sixty, uh, and I look back on that and I'm 491 00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:09,090 happy and pleased that I lived that life. 492 00:38:09,090 --> 00:38:12,270 And I heard you say the very same thing. 493 00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:19,080 It gave me substance and that rubble that God broke when He wanted to, 494 00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:21,505 He waited until I was ready for it 495 00:38:22,545 --> 00:38:25,875 because He doesn't give us what we can't handle. 496 00:38:26,415 --> 00:38:34,095 And, and that shows us, after we come through that storm, wow, I 497 00:38:34,095 --> 00:38:37,875 did that and I can do more now. 498 00:38:38,235 --> 00:38:44,265 And it gives us that bump that we need and it gets us through. 499 00:38:44,595 --> 00:38:50,295 So it's really important that we recognize people, places, and 500 00:38:50,295 --> 00:38:55,185 things in our lives because they're important and we control that. 501 00:38:55,875 --> 00:39:02,475 We have to set boundaries on each of those things because life is 502 00:39:02,475 --> 00:39:07,154 about enjoying what's around us. 503 00:39:07,395 --> 00:39:12,105 And if we're putting those bad negative things around us, that's 504 00:39:12,105 --> 00:39:13,965 what we're going to experience. 505 00:39:14,415 --> 00:39:22,815 And after we wake up and we finally figure out what we have to offer society, we 506 00:39:22,815 --> 00:39:26,595 tend to shed that shame a lot easier. 507 00:39:26,865 --> 00:39:32,055 Because believe me, I still mess up and I get that shame and guilt because 508 00:39:32,055 --> 00:39:35,505 it keeps us on track and it's okay. 509 00:39:35,925 --> 00:39:44,685 So Lois Hollis, one of the gals that I have interviewed in the past, she 510 00:39:44,685 --> 00:39:51,825 talks about shame and guilt and being able to name it and, uh, own up to 511 00:39:51,825 --> 00:39:59,745 it and not let it control you, but you be okay with them being in your 512 00:39:59,745 --> 00:40:02,355 life because they're part of you. 513 00:40:02,895 --> 00:40:07,575 And I think it's really important that people get that. 514 00:40:08,805 --> 00:40:09,225 Yeah. 515 00:40:09,795 --> 00:40:15,105 And, you know, the, um, the, you know, I talked about Jesus of Nazareth and 516 00:40:15,105 --> 00:40:19,125 how important that was to me growing up, you know, that mini series. 517 00:40:19,125 --> 00:40:23,234 And then, and I, and I would escape into movies a lot, that 518 00:40:23,234 --> 00:40:26,145 was one of my other outlets, you know, I just escaped into movies. 519 00:40:26,145 --> 00:40:30,464 But, you know, I was thinking about when you were saying the shame thing, um, I 520 00:40:30,464 --> 00:40:34,665 don't know if you've ever seen the movie Passion of the Christ that Mel Gibson did, 521 00:40:35,145 --> 00:40:39,045 Um, it's a very difficult movie to watch. 522 00:40:39,075 --> 00:40:40,605 It's beautifully done. 523 00:40:41,174 --> 00:40:49,995 Um, but there's a scene in it, and this, this movie came out in 2004 and 524 00:40:49,995 --> 00:40:56,174 I was just finishing up that work I was talking about with that therapist, you 525 00:40:56,174 --> 00:41:01,845 know, where I had, um, uncovered most of my childhood trauma stuff and done 526 00:41:01,845 --> 00:41:04,785 the work on that to move beyond it, 527 00:41:05,325 --> 00:41:10,665 and I went to see this movie in the theater and there's this scene in the 528 00:41:10,665 --> 00:41:19,305 movie where Jesus or, um, the, the, uh, woman who Jesus saves from being 529 00:41:19,305 --> 00:41:28,215 stoned, um, she has a, she, she's watching Him be beat during His beating 530 00:41:28,215 --> 00:41:33,555 prior to the crucifixion, and she sees the blood and she gets down to 531 00:41:33,615 --> 00:41:38,895 try to mop the blood up and she's on the ground and she has a flashback to 532 00:41:38,895 --> 00:41:41,175 when He saved her from being stoned. 533 00:41:41,685 --> 00:41:46,634 And the way they film that scene, it's all from her point of view. 534 00:41:47,235 --> 00:41:53,235 And so you're seeing all these rocks drop down and these stones drop down 535 00:41:53,235 --> 00:41:59,095 and then these men sort of back away from her and she reaches for His foot. 536 00:41:59,555 --> 00:42:03,705 And then she looks up and, and He's, His face is there and the sun is 537 00:42:03,705 --> 00:42:06,405 like right behind His, His head. 538 00:42:06,405 --> 00:42:11,835 And it's just like this bright, beautiful vision and then you see His 539 00:42:11,835 --> 00:42:15,105 hand come down and, and pick her up. 540 00:42:15,945 --> 00:42:22,425 And I will never forget, I, I, I, I wish there was a way, I tried to write to 541 00:42:22,425 --> 00:42:27,675 Mel Gibson and the letter actually ended up coming back to me as undeliverable. 542 00:42:27,975 --> 00:42:32,565 I, I was like, How do I get in touch with this man to tell him that if you 543 00:42:32,565 --> 00:42:38,775 don't ever do anything ever again for the rest of your life, what you did 544 00:42:38,775 --> 00:42:46,155 in that scene, and at the time that I saw it in my life, brought me back to 545 00:42:46,155 --> 00:42:53,205 Jesus because I, because I had left the shame on that therapist floor. 546 00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:59,700 And when I saw Jesus picking her up, I was feeling Him pick me up. 547 00:42:59,940 --> 00:43:05,160 Like, it was like He knew now I could look at Him now, I could look directly at Him. 548 00:43:06,060 --> 00:43:13,260 And that's when things really started to change for me and I was able to, I, 549 00:43:13,350 --> 00:43:18,540 I at, during that same time I met, um, there was a new chaplain where I worked, 550 00:43:18,660 --> 00:43:23,910 he just started that year and he was the first, it took a little while, 551 00:43:23,910 --> 00:43:28,680 but he was the first, what I call man of the cloth in my whole life. 552 00:43:29,010 --> 00:43:33,150 I was like thirty-four years old at that point that I was able to sit down 553 00:43:33,150 --> 00:43:39,030 with and really talk about God and Jesus and be vulnerable and trust him. 554 00:43:39,420 --> 00:43:45,450 And he became my, it was like God gave me the therapist and then when that 555 00:43:45,450 --> 00:43:50,759 work was done, He gave me this chaplain who just, he was the one who encouraged 556 00:43:50,759 --> 00:43:55,770 me to go to seminary, he, he was like the dad that I never had, you know? 557 00:43:55,770 --> 00:44:00,180 And, and it was just, God has just consistently done that for me. 558 00:44:00,180 --> 00:44:08,210 Like, He's just put people in my life that I just feel so blessed that I would 559 00:44:08,210 --> 00:44:15,690 never change anything that happened to me because I, I don't wanna do it again, 560 00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:19,440 I don't have to go back there, you know? 561 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:25,859 But I wouldn't change it because it, it, all of it drew me to Him, you 562 00:44:25,859 --> 00:44:31,200 know, all of it drew me closer to God and it made me seek harder and, and, 563 00:44:31,290 --> 00:44:38,280 and, um, uh, maybe appreciate more the people in my life and, yeah, all that. 564 00:44:38,340 --> 00:44:43,380 I mean, it's just, I could go on and on for hours, so I'll stop there. 565 00:44:45,070 --> 00:44:45,290 Yeah. 566 00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:54,630 Well, you know, Jessica, the, the big thing there is sometimes we think we love 567 00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:58,080 people and we don't even know how to love. 568 00:44:58,590 --> 00:45:07,710 And when we accept Christ, it opens us up to understanding what true love is. 569 00:45:07,950 --> 00:45:17,730 And if we really look at the story of Christ Himself, it will change 570 00:45:17,730 --> 00:45:20,850 you if you accept the story. 571 00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:25,500 And, and that's your obligation, it, it's your choice. 572 00:45:25,830 --> 00:45:33,760 And He's not pressuring anyone to accept, He just wants you to be aware. 573 00:45:34,670 --> 00:45:41,820 And, and anyone that cannot see what that offers you, it, 574 00:45:41,825 --> 00:45:45,210 it, you have some growth to do. 575 00:45:45,660 --> 00:45:52,860 And I never discourage and I never say they're bad people, it's, it's 576 00:45:52,860 --> 00:45:55,920 not the people, it's what they do. 577 00:45:57,060 --> 00:45:57,570 Well, right. 578 00:45:57,570 --> 00:46:02,400 And it's, it takes what it takes to, to, you know, like for me, for a long time 579 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,900 I couldn't accept it for a long time because of what I had come from, you know? 580 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:11,640 And so it, like you, I loved how you described it when you were talking 581 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:18,060 about the footprints, you know, even in those darkest times, Jesus is with us. 582 00:46:18,060 --> 00:46:24,985 You know, He showed up outside that party for me probably, I'm, I'm 583 00:46:24,990 --> 00:46:29,130 guessing He knew I was gonna run away because He knows everything. 584 00:46:29,850 --> 00:46:35,250 But He showed up there anyway because He wanted me to know I'm right here 585 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,950 when you're ready, I'm right here. 586 00:46:38,820 --> 00:46:43,410 You know, and that's the, that's the beautiful thing that I think people miss. 587 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:50,310 It's not about what I'm gonna do today to get Jesus to love me, He already loves me. 588 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,140 I can't, there's nothing I can do that's gonna get Him to 589 00:46:55,140 --> 00:46:56,880 love me, it's not about that. 590 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:02,970 It's about getting rid of all this crap that's in between me and Jesus, you know? 591 00:47:02,970 --> 00:47:04,920 Because that's what it is, it's all crap. 592 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:05,430 All of it. 593 00:47:06,150 --> 00:47:06,450 Yep. 594 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:14,670 And, and, you know, to add to it, some of the last words that Christ said while 595 00:47:14,670 --> 00:47:22,259 He was on the Earth is, Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. 596 00:47:22,830 --> 00:47:28,050 And I always look to the cross at that moment in time when I'm dealing with 597 00:47:28,110 --> 00:47:35,670 difficult people, places, and things and it humbles me and it lets me remember. 598 00:47:36,030 --> 00:47:42,540 And, and I love how you described the scene in the Passion of the Christ, where 599 00:47:42,810 --> 00:47:50,009 the focal point was the woman and watching all the stones drop, chills, you know? 600 00:47:50,009 --> 00:47:57,810 It, it is how you perceive things and the people you choose to put around you. 601 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:06,630 And sometimes you have no control and that's the times He's got you, man. 602 00:48:07,020 --> 00:48:11,820 And you will get through it, just wait for the better times on the 603 00:48:11,820 --> 00:48:17,670 other side and that will give you fuel to get through to the next one. 604 00:48:18,510 --> 00:48:22,920 Uh, and yes, we could speak for hours about things. 605 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,430 I barely scratched the surface with you, Jessica. 606 00:48:26,910 --> 00:48:34,230 Uh, the main thing, you, you said it earlier, when you had the dead look in 607 00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:41,950 your eyes, and that's what this podcast is about, Dead America, that dead feeling 608 00:48:41,970 --> 00:48:47,040 inside, we all can feel great again. 609 00:48:47,220 --> 00:48:52,770 We can all feel the love that we have waiting for us, 610 00:48:53,610 --> 00:48:56,370 and it's all just a choice. 611 00:48:57,450 --> 00:49:04,005 Is there anything, Is there anything you'd like to add to our conversation? 612 00:49:05,655 --> 00:49:07,755 Yeah, and that's the, that's the other thing. 613 00:49:07,755 --> 00:49:11,775 I'm glad you brought that up because one of the things that attracted me to 614 00:49:11,775 --> 00:49:16,665 your podcast was the title of it, which is hilarious because, you know, um, 615 00:49:16,905 --> 00:49:19,125 it, it kind of catches you off guard. 616 00:49:20,175 --> 00:49:20,445 Yeah. 617 00:49:21,165 --> 00:49:28,845 But, you know, my, my thesis idea came because I spent so much 618 00:49:28,845 --> 00:49:31,365 time in my life being terrified. 619 00:49:31,605 --> 00:49:36,795 And even in that, in that moment when Jesus came to me, His love scared 620 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,705 me so much, um, that I ran away. 621 00:49:39,705 --> 00:49:44,175 You know, I was so afraid, you know, when the end of the world happened, 622 00:49:44,685 --> 00:49:48,795 I was going to be burning in the flames with the sinners, you know? 623 00:49:48,795 --> 00:49:52,305 And, and all those things that, you know, there were 624 00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:56,430 really scary movies about the devil when I was growing up, like The 625 00:49:56,430 --> 00:50:01,530 Exorcist and the Omen and, you know, those, those things that said we're all 626 00:50:01,530 --> 00:50:03,390 gonna die and it's gonna be horrible. 627 00:50:03,390 --> 00:50:07,140 You know, the, just apocalyptic fear. 628 00:50:07,590 --> 00:50:12,810 And I remember sitting in seminary and, and thinking, you know, we're 629 00:50:12,810 --> 00:50:18,120 learning all about how Jesus was so metaphorical in how He spoke and how 630 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,680 He shared parables and everything was symbolic and He wanted people to 631 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,500 dig deeper into what He was saying. 632 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,060 And I thought to myself, Well, maybe when He was talking about His second 633 00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:32,610 coming, maybe that was metaphorical. 634 00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:37,440 And that's when I started to come up with this idea of personal, a 635 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,460 personal death, a personal end times. 636 00:50:41,460 --> 00:50:44,700 The word eschatology is in the subtitle of my book, and that 637 00:50:44,700 --> 00:50:49,500 means the end of time, the end of things, the study of the end times. 638 00:50:51,465 --> 00:50:56,985 I, because when I was in, when I was in seminary, I had been, I, I think 639 00:50:56,985 --> 00:51:00,765 I was about fourteen, fifteen years in recovery when I started seminary 640 00:51:01,185 --> 00:51:03,705 so I, I was a completely new person. 641 00:51:04,125 --> 00:51:06,465 Like I, I was, talk about born again. 642 00:51:06,465 --> 00:51:10,400 I mean, that person who showed up at that first meeting while she's still 643 00:51:10,605 --> 00:51:14,355 in here and all I have to do is throw a cookie down my throat and I'll find her 644 00:51:14,355 --> 00:51:18,165 again, I'm sure, you know, I don't wanna, I don't want any part of that, right? 645 00:51:18,165 --> 00:51:21,315 But, um, she's still there. 646 00:51:21,525 --> 00:51:28,875 But I had to die to so much of myself in order to truly live, like what 647 00:51:28,875 --> 00:51:36,015 you're talking about, like to, to truly live the life I was created to live. 648 00:51:36,675 --> 00:51:42,655 The things about me that were killing me had to be killed. 649 00:51:43,695 --> 00:51:47,250 You know, because they were, I was kind of absorbing myself. 650 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,410 I was so self-absorbed that 651 00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:52,020 I just kind of kept like feeding off of 652 00:51:52,020 --> 00:51:52,650 myself. 653 00:51:52,650 --> 00:51:57,030 And I was, it was, it was, like I said, it was a walking, living hell. 654 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,660 And so that's what I would add to it that, you know, and it's, 655 00:52:00,690 --> 00:52:06,000 it's an, it's a, um, for me it's an ongoing process of awakening. 656 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,430 Like it's, because what'll happen is I'll die to something like, let's say I die 657 00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:13,500 to the, the food and the alcohol, right? 658 00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:17,160 And I go, Okay, I'm gonna put that down, not gonna be a part of my life. 659 00:52:17,490 --> 00:52:21,870 And then this self-centered victimhood comes up and I have to die to that. 660 00:52:21,870 --> 00:52:25,050 And then I, you know, and then I, and then I recognized, wow, 661 00:52:25,050 --> 00:52:26,610 I judged the crap out of people. 662 00:52:26,610 --> 00:52:32,880 Okay, now I gotta let, and all these things, I can die to them because 663 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,740 I have this relationship with Jesus Christ that, you know, I go to Him 664 00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:39,660 and I go, Could you help me with this? 665 00:52:39,660 --> 00:52:43,800 Because me trying to do it, I just keep messing up. 666 00:52:45,450 --> 00:52:48,240 You know, and I'm gonna need you to take this from me. 667 00:52:48,690 --> 00:52:53,220 The way He lifted me up off the ground, He needs to also take this from me. 668 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,970 I have to show up and do the work, but He's going to, He's 669 00:52:56,975 --> 00:52:58,170 gonna do the heavy lifting. 670 00:52:59,670 --> 00:53:00,705 So yeah, that's what I would add. 671 00:53:04,475 --> 00:53:12,060 The, the, the big key is people are always watching and they're watching 672 00:53:12,060 --> 00:53:14,610 for something better than themselves. 673 00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:21,660 So don't display something that is contrary to what Christ would have 674 00:53:21,660 --> 00:53:24,840 you display and that's hard to do. 675 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,160 And sometimes you're gonna be caught off guard doing those things. 676 00:53:30,540 --> 00:53:37,920 It's the prodigal son thing, they, they will rejoice in heaven when you return 677 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,990 from those ways but you're always welcome. 678 00:53:43,050 --> 00:53:49,410 And that's the thing, judging other people for where they are in this journey, 679 00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:53,550 it will never bring them to the path. 680 00:53:54,120 --> 00:54:00,810 And once we strip away, I like how you say it's basically being born 681 00:54:00,810 --> 00:54:07,290 again when you strip away all that judgment, that hate, that diluted 682 00:54:07,290 --> 00:54:10,770 thought that we allow into ourselves. 683 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:16,080 That's when we find the glory of God and I, I love it. 684 00:54:17,490 --> 00:54:23,970 Jessica, could you tell people about your books, how to get ahold of you, and all 685 00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:27,180 of, the call to action for our listeners? 686 00:54:28,425 --> 00:54:29,085 Yeah. 687 00:54:29,145 --> 00:54:33,345 Uh, everything you need to know about me or how to contact me, you can find 688 00:54:33,345 --> 00:54:36,775 via my website, it's jessicalmorris.com. 689 00:54:36,795 --> 00:54:39,885 Very easy to find, it's just my name with my middle initial. 690 00:54:40,455 --> 00:54:45,285 Um, and my books are on there, information about spiritual direction 691 00:54:45,285 --> 00:54:51,225 is there, um, my blog is there, which has a lot of my poetry on it, I mean, 692 00:54:51,225 --> 00:54:53,085 everything you wanna know, it's there. 693 00:54:53,085 --> 00:54:57,495 There's even a couple of, um, videos from different podcasts I've been 694 00:54:57,495 --> 00:55:02,895 on, um, and some of my own lectures and, uh, speaking, and, you know, 695 00:55:02,895 --> 00:55:04,815 things like, all kinds of stuff there. 696 00:55:05,235 --> 00:55:06,885 Um, so yeah. 697 00:55:06,885 --> 00:55:13,560 I mean, my call to action every day is, you know, God, what, what can I 698 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,510 do today that will bring glory to you? 699 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:21,779 You know, 'cause for a long time, you know, it was about what can I do 700 00:55:22,170 --> 00:55:26,790 to, um, further my writing career? 701 00:55:26,790 --> 00:55:31,319 You know, God show me how to get my, get people to buy my book, show me how 702 00:55:31,350 --> 00:55:35,370 to get published, show me how to make more money so I can help, you know, 703 00:55:35,370 --> 00:55:39,690 with the household finances, you know, all these things I was praying for. 704 00:55:39,690 --> 00:55:42,779 And now I just get on my knees and I'm like, God, what can 705 00:55:42,779 --> 00:55:44,160 bring glory to you today? 706 00:55:44,730 --> 00:55:46,290 Put it in front of me today. 707 00:55:46,740 --> 00:55:49,890 And, and, you know, sometimes I fall flat on my face. 708 00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:54,660 Other times I, you know, I go to bed at night and go, Wow, 709 00:55:54,660 --> 00:55:57,180 God, you really used me today. 710 00:55:57,180 --> 00:55:58,350 You know, that was awesome. 711 00:55:58,649 --> 00:56:03,839 I mean, heck, last week I did Vacation Bible school at my church, and I don't 712 00:56:03,839 --> 00:56:06,299 even really like kids that much, you know? 713 00:56:06,299 --> 00:56:11,700 But, but I mean, I, they asked me to do it and I was like, I 714 00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:13,169 was like, All right, whatever. 715 00:56:13,169 --> 00:56:17,220 And, you know, I gotta tell you, it was, well, I like, yeah, I'm 716 00:56:17,220 --> 00:56:19,080 much more suited for adults. 717 00:56:19,470 --> 00:56:25,109 Um, you know, it, it really was eye-opening for me, um, to be present 718 00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:29,730 with those kids for a week and, and to do that and to meet some other 719 00:56:29,730 --> 00:56:32,850 people in the church that I wouldn't have met otherwise, you know? 720 00:56:32,850 --> 00:56:37,859 And so you never know what might happen when you say yes to something that 721 00:56:37,859 --> 00:56:43,109 before you would've, you know, there's this great line in one of my recovery 722 00:56:43,109 --> 00:56:47,730 programs where they say, Be careful of contempt prior to investigation. 723 00:56:49,185 --> 00:56:54,735 And for me, I need to think about that a lot because there's a lot 724 00:56:54,735 --> 00:56:58,125 of things in my life that I'm like, Oh, no, no, I, I don't do that. 725 00:56:58,125 --> 00:56:59,715 Well, did I ever try it? 726 00:57:00,795 --> 00:57:02,295 Did I ever research it? 727 00:57:03,195 --> 00:57:07,470 You know, I'm, I, I wanna let go of that closed-mindedness. 728 00:57:07,470 --> 00:57:12,585 And so I don't know about Vacation Bible school again, because I have 729 00:57:12,585 --> 00:57:14,355 tried it once, but you never know. 730 00:57:21,375 --> 00:57:26,055 There's something there, you know, there's a message in that someplace. 731 00:57:28,095 --> 00:57:32,265 Jessica, it has been a pleasure speaking with you today. 732 00:57:32,325 --> 00:57:35,595 I wanna say thank you for sharing your story here on the 733 00:57:35,595 --> 00:57:37,185 Dead America Podcast with us. 734 00:57:38,265 --> 00:57:39,355 Oh, thank you so much, Ed. 735 00:57:39,355 --> 00:57:41,565 It was, it was an absolute honor for me. 736 00:57:41,715 --> 00:57:42,225 Thank you. 737 00:57:47,285 --> 00:57:55,395 She grew up in the church house shadow white clapboard and stained glass light, 738 00:57:57,225 --> 00:58:04,605 knew every verse by heart at seven but the words never felt quite right. 739 00:58:06,654 --> 00:58:16,475 Preacher's girl this Sunday bears hiding what she couldn't be. 740 00:58:16,505 --> 00:58:19,995 Years of silence built a prison. 741 00:58:21,375 --> 00:58:26,285 Minister's daughter drowns in 742 00:58:28,424 --> 00:58:33,424 pain, Jesus finds her in the rain. 743 00:58:33,424 --> 00:58:39,915 Steve and Paul show her the way, dying to self, she's born today. 744 00:58:40,254 --> 00:58:46,075 Second coming lies within. 745 00:58:46,104 --> 00:58:55,194 She met them at a Wednesday meeting, not the kind her father led, 746 00:58:55,634 --> 00:59:03,424 two old souls with gentle wisdom spoke of grace instead of dread. 747 00:59:03,424 --> 00:59:10,065 They didn't quote her father's sermon, 748 00:59:12,285 --> 00:59:19,694 didn't ask her to repent, just sat with her, stilled the rage beside the river. 749 00:59:20,095 --> 00:59:28,479 Minister's daughter drowns in pain, Jesus finds her in the rain. 750 00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:38,839 Steve and Paul show her the way, dying to self, she's born today. 751 00:59:39,049 --> 00:59:44,659 Second coming lies within. 752 00:59:44,689 --> 00:59:54,359 All the rules she tried to follow, all the weight she tried to bear, 753 00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:07,459 falling like October leaves now, dissolving in the autumn air. 754 01:00:07,459 --> 01:00:14,794 Now she walks a different pathway, still believes, but breathes more free, 755 01:00:16,965 --> 01:00:24,565 sees her father on most Sundays knows he'll never truly see. 756 01:00:26,175 --> 01:00:35,504 That there's a kingdom blooming in her found in letting go of 757 01:00:35,504 --> 01:00:43,855 the fight, sometimes redemption looks like drowning, sometimes death proceeds light. 758 01:00:43,855 --> 01:00:54,685 Minister's daughter drowns in pain, Jesus finds her in the rain. 759 01:00:55,545 --> 01:01:05,055 Steve and Paul show her the way, dying to self, she's born today. 760 01:01:06,865 --> 01:01:14,275 Second coming lies within. 761 01:01:14,535 --> 01:01:17,005 Second coming lies within. 762 01:01:17,384 --> 01:01:21,395 Second coming lies within.