You know, like actually sometimes I'll get so much dopamine from a conversation
that I have to like chill for a little bit to like come back to baseline.
'Cause you can have a really fast crash after a good conversation 'cause you don't
know what to do with yourself with all the chemicals that are floating around.
It's been a learning curve to kind of understand that.
Today, we're speaking with Malisa Hepner.
She is an author, a speaker, a podcast host, also a licensed
clinical social worker.
Malisa, could you please introduce yourself?
Let people know a little more about you, please.
Hello, I'm Malisa.
I don't know how much you want me to go back, but, uh, I'll
give you a really quick summary.
Um, about a year ago, I started a podcast.
I quit my full-time employment, I started a private practice, and uh,
kind of on an entrepreneurial journey.
I had a spiritual awakening during the beginning of my healing, and I'm
just kind of on a global mission to, I always say, I'm, I'm, I'm changing
the world, starting with mine.
So I'm, what I find is that the more I learn about myself and apply
love, compassion, understanding to myself, the more I can see
all of the same things in others.
And just a really close connection to humanity in general.
And so every time I change something in my world, it changes the world around me.
And I'm just kind of looking for that ripple effect, you know,
sharing my story as much as possible.
And, um, just showing people healing's possible, it's not as hard as we make it.
And ultimately life's not about healing, uh, you know, uh, we heal so
that we can live life to the fullest.
I agree with that a hundred percent, Malisa.
Be the change you wanna see in the world, Gandhi, it's one of
the great quotes of all times.
And if you are really true to that, you'll find that you do a lot of inner work.
And that is hard, especially when you come from backgrounds that
might not be the best per se.
But we all have our backgrounds.
So why don't you start with your background and tell people
what, what your life was like when you were young growing up.
Okay, so I was, um, in the hospital by two months old for neglect, essentially.
My parents were addicts, they just kind of didn't know what they were doing.
Um, like I don't think they were intentionally not taking good care
of me, it just, they had very limited capacity to do anything different.
And, uh, did a lot of back and forth, even in that first year,
between my grandma and my mom.
I was put in, uh, foster care at like ten months old as well and,
uh, maybe, maybe younger than that.
But basically with addict parents, I experienced every type of
abuse that you can experience.
And, either by them or someone that they put me around.
And
we went back and forth between my mom and my grandparents until I
was about eight and then my grandma got permanent guardianship of us.
We did, uh, foster care sort of, um, through our state agency,
and then my grandpa divorced my grandma when I was twelve and left
her for his best friend's wife.
And at that time we got, uh, involved in a private foster care agency
'cause my grandma, she did not have any way to take care of or support.
I mean, she had been staying at home with us and then prior to that, with her kids.
I mean, she supported my grandpa's business.
He was a truck driver, he had a hauling business.
And so she just didn't have any capacity to financially care for us.
And we were, it was a program called the Casey Family
Program, amazing organization.
I'm still to this day, so grateful for them, dedicated my first book to them.
But, um, so then we're still doing a lot of, like, my parents are involved,
but they're still raging addicts, in and out of prison, in and out of jail.
Like, it's, like someone's constantly incarcerated, usually my mom.
I mean, if I'm being fair, it was mostly my mom.
Uh, my dad had his fair share, but he was a lot better at staying
out of trouble than she was.
But then my dad died of a morphine overdose when I was fifteen and my mom
died of complications related to Hep C and cirrhosis when she, when I was, uh, almost
twenty-two, pregnant with my first kid.
And it was just so much trauma on the daily 'cause my grandma as the, though
she did her best, was also a narcissist.
And, uh, it was incredibly difficult dealing with
recurring trauma and then also the constant criticism
and division that's created.
And I was surrounded by a very unhealthy, toxic family system.
So because I lived with my grandma, all the cousins, all the aunts,
uncle, you know, they came to our house and we were around them a lot.
And while it created some good memories, it also created a lot of strife within
because it was a really unhealthy system.
And so I took a lot, a lot, a lot of very maladaptive coping behaviors into
my adulthood, and that is, that's kind of where I found myself at forty-four
in, in, well, forty-three really, but complete burnout in every area
of my life with zero understanding of what I needed to do to feel better.
Like, I was in profound darkness.
And so that's, that's what got me here, was learning how to
get myself outta that darkness.
Let's go back to the early part of your life again, because a lot of that toxic
family behavior, it definitely had a big impact with your social environment.
So that impact, how did it make you do in school and what was that association
like crossing over into, out of, out of home and into your social life?
Um, man, that is a really good question.
I was,
I guess the best way to say this, for me, I felt, in hindsight, this
is the, the verbiage I would use, I was really stunted socially.
Like I, I really, I was awkward.
Um, I'm a Gemini and have a lot of fire in my, in myself, so like,
I was outgoing, but almost like in the most uncoordinated way.
I was desperate for approval and acceptance.
And so I just did a lot of really weird stuff like, actually the first
chapter in my first book is all about all the weird stuff I did.
Like, because I can laugh at it, but like literally, I was a weird kid.
I did the weirdest stuff.
And I mean, up until high school, well, after about seventh or eighth
grade, I was, uh, probably seventh, I, I just was, I was so socially
awkward and a lot of masking.
I remember just trying to like fit someone else on for size, like just
taking other people's personality traits and like, actually the only reason I'm
as funny as I am, and I'm being dead serious, is 'cause my older brother
was hilarious and we loved comedy.
And, and I watched him, and I studied him, and I saw the
way people magnetized to him.
And he was, he was, he had such a good personality.
And so I would steal from him, I would steal from Jim Carrey
on, um, what was that show?
In Living Color.
You know, like I, I would just take these pieces of, of people's
personalities and just like mask in them.
I did not know how to be an individual or who I was until, honestly, probably,
like it started in high school.
But once my dad died, I mean, very sobering and somber obviously.
So you kind of start to get your understanding of what's important and
what's not and whatever and I started to kind of develop a self at that time.
But man, I, and, and as far as learning went, I was, I had
so much struggle in school.
I had so, so much struggle.
I mean, I still have yet to be diagnosed with ADHD 'cause
I've never pursued a diagnosis.
But I have zero doubt I have that.
I have zero doubt that I had major trauma brain that just did not, I mean,
I remember having so much trouble just, just attuning into the environment.
I was very zoned out all the time.
Just kind of, I created little fantasy worlds to live in, to
kind of cope with everything.
Um, and, and some of that's a normal, like kid coping, I think, but I
was pretty maladaptive with it.
I mean, I really was.
Yeah.
So going into, you know, that high school into college phase, because
you obviously went into college and received your social worker
license, did, was there a difference?
Because there's obviously going to be a shift in behavior from that childhood
behavior into more of an adult sense.
Was that sort of a grooming period for your adult life?
Okay.
So when I graduated high school, uh, the Casey Family Program had this amazing
scholarship for their youth in care.
And they would help provide a portion of your rent, or like
housing outta college, whatever.
They were very, very, very financially supportive.
So I moved outta my grandma's house, I turned eighteen in
June, I moved out August 1st and started college two weeks later.
And I went from all the right decisions for all the wrong reasons
as a good girl and the family golden child to complete freedom
to make whatever decision I wanted.
And I'm gonna let you know those weren't great decisions for me.
Like just being thrown out into the world, like all of a sudden, like you've never
had an ounce of freedom in your life 'cause my grandma was very controlling,
to now, like, as long as she don't find out, like, baby, you can do what you want.
And I did what I wanted, okay?
So I did go to school for about three weeks and then dropped
out without dropping my classes.
Uh, I did that two times, two semesters.
So I went, dropped out within three weeks.
Casey family was like, We are so disappointed in you.
And I was like, I'm pretty disappointed in me too.
Sorry about you.
And then I took a semester off.
And then during that semester off, met my ex-husband, moved in immediately.
Real healthy stuff there.
Married him 'cause I lost my virginity to him.
And then, um, 'cause that's what grandma said you had to do, you're
absolved of the sin if you marry them.
So we were all good there, don't worry.
We were righteous, got married.
Um, and then I, I did the same exact thing again.
Went to school, made it longer in the semester, about three fourths,
and then I was done, dropped again.
Got more F's on my transcript.
And then I took, um, one semester off and
then I went back and, and started getting serious.
And I only made it a couple semesters because 9/11 happened
and my schizophrenic brother was in New York and we didn't know.
We got a call from Bellevue Hospital, um, which is a major psychiatric unit
there, uh, but right there in Manhattan, where they said, this was September
12th, and they said, Yo, this is so and so from Bellevue, um, your brother
is here in our psychiatric facility.
He wandered in here on September 10th.
We live in Oklahoma for reference, okay?
He wandered in here on September 10th asking for a cigarette,
and we 50 through 50'd him.
I mean, we put, we, we admitted him against his will because
he was delusional and whatever.
And then September 11th happened, like the thought of like, the fact
that he could have been dead in New York City and we never would've known
because we had no idea he was there.
We had checked on him in his apartment, my grandma went over there, he, she, he
wasn't there when she went to check, and then boom, this is the next call we get.
And I understand what was happening inside of me now, but at the time
I didn't understand why that jacked me up so much between that and my
mom's incarceration, um, I was like, I gotta take a little time off.
So I did, and then I got pregnant on purpose, but because, you know,
twenty-two year olds should absolutely get pregnant on purpose, okay?
Um, but like, I mean, unhealed really, whatever, twenty-two year olds.
I'm saying, for me, it wasn't the smartest decision, do you boo?
But, um, and then I got, after I had him, I just got super, super serious about
it, and I was a different person then.
First of all, I learned that I could learn.
I, I could take in information, remember it, and, and I was smart.
Like I remember the first semester making a four point, that I was
like, I'm not even just average, like I'm, I'm intelligent, you know?
Because I really, I, I super thought I was dumb because I did have a
very hard time learning math and that didn't change for some years.
My brain had to fully develop before I could learn math.
I mean, truthfully.
But, um, other than that, like I'm, I'm a smart gal. I, but I
didn't see it that way at all.
So I really struggled up until I put my mind to it.
Like, I was like, No, I'm, I, I'm getting this degree, like
I don't care what I have to do.
I'm getting this.
And I wanted to show my kids, my parents, my grandma, my
family, like this is possible.
And I was the first in my entire, okay, I always forget this 'cause I don't, I don't
think about my dad's family as my family.
I don't know why, they're not who I was like predominantly raised around.
So to be fair, cousins on my dad's side did graduate before
me, so blah, blah, blah.
I never wanna like say anything, uh, incorrectly there.
But in my family, what I consider to be my family, I was the first.
And so, I mean, I was actually only about the sixth to graduate
high school in my family.
And for reference, I have like nineteen cousins.
So like, not, not, not all of them graduated, you know?
Very interesting.
You know, so that part of life is one of those, it, it's exciting
and degrading at the same time.
And until,
Oh God, it'll beat you down, won't it?
It will.
So it, it's very exciting.
And
at one point, reality hits and you realize, I've, I've gotta clean myself up.
What was that moment like for you?
You know, I think it was actually a lot of moments like when I was
dropping out that first semester, I remember like, yes, there was so much
shame and, and guilt and just, uh, an overall yuckiness about the experience.
But I don't know.
I had, I think, man, I really think I must have had some sort of connection
with like a higher version of me because I was very good, oddly, at
soothing myself over that situation and being like, This happens, you know?
Like you just, you, you weren't ready and it's okay.
Like, 'cause I didn't have anyone else telling me that, I'll tell you that much.
Everyone was pretty disappointed.
Why is it a surprise that the person who just graduated high
school with a 1.7, didn't do well?
Being thrown to the wolves, going to college for the first time.
Granted, everybody begged me to not make the decision to move out on my
own and dah, dah, dah, I get that.
But like, I had to get outta that house, first of all.
But like, to be fair, I mean, it, it was fairly obvious that
wasn't gonna go well at 1.7.
Not even a two point.
Yeah, 1.7.
And so, you know, I, I don't know, I just kinda, I had a belief
in myself, like, I really did.
And I don't know where it came from 'cause I didn't know I was smart.
And so I just, it was part of my purpose.
Like I was, I knew that I had this purpose instilled in me at a very young age.
And once I decided, I knew I was gonna be in the counseling field,
but I didn't know which degree path I would take or whatever.
But once I decided on the degree path, it was just a matter of when.
It, it was never a matter of if.
Like I, I knew, I don't know, I just was really encouraging of myself.
Even when I did it a second time, I was like, You know what?
Okay, baby, still not your time.
Still not your time.
It's okay, it's okay, we'll do it again later.
It's all right.
I mean, and I think too, like, you know how financial aid will make
you pay for your own schooling for a little bit after you mess up a
couple times and things like that.
You know, it's just a whole combination of things of like, all right, baby,
we've got to, got to lock in here.
But I don't, I never doubted that I would eventually, that's the weird thing.
So I just kind of, I got more and more mature, you know?
I started to learn how to, I've always been a little chaos, you know?
And I kind of started to learn how to form a system, uh, and, and man, with ADHD,
again, I don't have a diagnosis, but you know, um, energetic cycles are a thing.
And learning how to prioritize and all of the things.
So it was just a matter of putting some pieces together in my brain
to get a little more success, but I never doubted I would do it.
I don't know, call me crazy.
Yeah.
You know, the, the thing that really comes to mind is the crab in the
bucket syndrome that we deal with.
A lot of our peers, when we're down in a situation, they wanna keep us there.
And we have to recognize the beauty within ourself, the love of ourself,
and recognize I'm worth something and I have something to give.
You started a podcast, I, I started a podcast because I
was so mad and disoriented.
I couldn't communicate effectively and I needed healing, so I
wanted something desperately.
Starting that podcast was the best decision, outside
of my marriage, of my life.
And this, this really brought new perspective into my life.
It, it brought other voices that, I needed to challenge myself.
I need to, needed to understand what, what do I think and why do I think that?
Digging into that deep, dark self is really the driving force
behind the Dead America Podcast.
We all kind of feel that deadness inside and we all know there's something
better than feeling this deadness.
This is a journey that you've taken also.
And what you are doing now is you're enlightening, you're having conversation,
and it's so uplifting in many ways.
How does that make you feel and what, what's your thoughts
about therapy as podcasting?
Well, um, first I would say, Podcasting has really changed
my life for the same reason.
Um, it was a podcast guest that introduced me to the book
that changed everything for me.
A book called The Finding Peace Workbook by Troy Love on Amazon for
like twenty-five bucks, it's worth it.
Um, it really broke shame down into different archetypes and, and helped me
understand what was happening in my brain.
And so that was, that was a game changer.
But more than that, I think I felt silenced my whole life.
Some, because I wasn't allowed to express feelings, others,
because I was so afraid to be me.
And so I really wrote more than anything because I could craft
a perfect sentence, you know?
Um, podcasting's allowed me to become a lot more comfortable with speaking my
truth instead of writing it perfectly.
I'm so much more okay with being messy with things, you know?
Like just really imperfect.
And I've, actually, I truly have branded my show around being a no frills podcast.
Totally authentic, raw, real, pretty unedited.
You know, like I only edit very, like the beginning, like when I'm sitting
there watching TikTok before they pop on.
You know, like very few edits happen on my show.
And, um, it, it really, it's helped me so much to step into my own authority
and really embody my own light.
But also like I'm meeting thought leaders, you know?
So like, they're, again, like you said, they're changing my paradigm,
they're changing, they're helping me grow as a human.
They offer free services to me too like, and I take 'em up on it.
I had a, uh, a guest, Josie Dumond, love her so much.
She's, oh God, I think she's a mindset coach and some other things.
She's amazing.
She's in the UK.
But, um, she offered a free coaching session for having her on as a guest.
Well, I'm gonna take you up on that.
Oh, change my life.
She taught me how to get into the energy I wanna be in anytime I'm not.
Like I, that's life altering information and I got it just because I talked to her.
And, and it provides this opportunity for conversations that would probably
never otherwise have happened.
'Cause I'm pretty shy as, as outgoing as I can be and whatever, initiating
conversation, I don't want to at all.
Um, unless it's this.
Like, I love deep conversations, but I'm not gonna go and
make small talk with people.
I've always hated it.
For a long time, I forced it.
And I was just like, Go be funny, go be the center of attention, blah,
blah, blah, you know, do things.
I hated it, I don't like it.
And so now I'm just really committed to whatever I feel in the moment, I will do.
But in terms of therapy on the show, you know, that's not, like
it's really, it, it's more like my clients get the same exact version
of me that my podcast guests do.
So I don't, like, I'm bringing all these industry leaders on and listening,
learning, I'm sharing my own learning, and growth, and whatever.
And, and then I take that information to clients sometimes and be
like, Hey, I had this lady on.
Sometimes I'll send them the raw, like, video of it because I'm like,
This won't air for a little bit, but you gotta see this, you know?
And so, uh, it all goes hand in hand really well because A,
I get to talk, people listen.
Hello, that's a beautiful thing.
As somebody who never felt like I was seen or heard as a child,
or even in early adulthood, like, ah, they listen to my advice.
They take it.
Like, oh my God.
And so like, it's still all so meaningful to me, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, and it really can uplift spirits.
The big fascinating thing I find is you never know who you're helping
and you never know who's watching.
And those industry leaders, they, they really do watch and they, they are
interested in your growth and they anticipate what you are going to do next.
And that, that really helps drive the incentive to produce better podcasts
and have better flowing content.
And it's okay to mess up.
Like earlier on our conversation, I had the mic muted.
You know, it's, it's one of those things and it's okay.
Because what you're here to do is foster curiosity and that curiosity
brings growth in all of us.
And that's really truly the fascinating thing I find behind podcasting.
Yeah.
Especially like, I don't know what, about, like anybody else, but I think,
for me, I guess I don't really go into any conversation with any expectations
other than to feel that light afterwards.
'Cause like I feel so good after having one of these conversations, whether I'm
on someone else's show or they're on mine.
Like the synergy, like all of it, it's just so good.
And I feel energized, and creative, and loving.
You know, like actually sometimes I'll get so much dopamine from a conversation
that I have to like chill for a little bit to like come back to baseline because
you can have a really fast crash after a good conversation 'cause you don't
know what to do with yourself with all the chemicals that are floating around.
It's been a learning curve to kind of understand that and how to
take care of yourself after that.
That's right.
You know, and also the anticipation.
You have to learn to control anticipation.
What could happen because of this, and what, you know, the excitement,
like you said, dopamine rush can really influence your thought for
a long time after a great episode.
And, and I, I have found that crash to be one of those things.
A host really needs to learn to just, hey, it is what it is and I,
I'm looking forward to the next one.
Instead of hanging on to what just happened.
You just gotta go take you a nap.
Yeah, exactly.
But I mean, I started to recognize chemical depletion
for what it is, you know?
And actually that's what helped me work through the fact that I used to
self-sabotage by spending money that I didn't necessarily need to spend all the
time, uh, because of chemical depletion.
Because I, I felt it after something and I was like, Ooh.
Because I was like, what do I do with this energy?
What do I do with this energy?
And then I had no energy.
And I was like, You know what?
This is when I usually feel bored and then the narrative when I'm bored is, you're
bored and lonely 'cause nobody likes you.
Nobody wants to be around you.
And it really, like, it was after a dopamine like crash to chemical
depletion that I put that together.
And I was like, Now I know why I do that.
And I stopped.
Like I just stopped doing it 'cause I knew that was attached to a
narrative that wasn't true, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's exciting when you actually find that trigger point
and you can actually address it.
Finally, once in your life you can, Oh wow.
That's what that is.
So it, it is the whole learning experience that you can get surrounding these
podcasts and more so what you can teach others that are listening to the podcast.
This is what you're here for, Malisa.
So could you go through what your services are, how you help people, and
also, you know, how they can get ahold of you and get in touch and work with you?
Yeah.
So, um, I've kind of closed the books for traditional therapy,
like as a one-on-one recurring.
Um, I'm maxed out on clients, but what I'm doing is I'm offering
guidance sessions to general public.
Um, I even have a complimentary session if like my other offers are not within
somebody's budget because I am committed to access to mental health care.
Um, but I have, um, just different levels of guidance.
And so what I do is I actually, 'cause I'm a woo woo girl, I actually use astrology.
I'm a baby astrologer, like I'm a student of astrology, but I, I can give
you a general understanding to help support the information I'm giving you.
I also use tarot if people are comfortable with that.
Um, and then just all my background as a therapist.
But really more, just like, I always tell my clients, it's not my LCSW
that makes me really good at this.
It's, it's my own understanding of the human experience and
the things I've gone through.
Like, my education did not teach me anything about this.
So, um, I have the credentials, but it, like, I'm heart and
soul into this, you know?
Um, and so, yeah, uh, uh, easiest way to find me is, empoweredwithmalisahepner.org
or @ malisa.hepner on Instagram.
And that, there's easy links to my link tree to go schedule with me.
But I have varied tiers of the sessions to give people plenty of options.
And trying to figure out how to connect like a pay
situation to it, like a, a PayPal paying for, or Klarna, you know, after
pay, eventually I'll get that set up to where people have those options.
But I'm a one man show a little bit, so just, you know, I slowly add
things to the website or whatever.
Um, doing a, doing more public speaking and just kind of sharing my story.
Uh, but also using my framework of, quiet the noise, connect
to self, and embody the light.
That's kind of the message.
And I kind of break those down for people in my talks or workshops.
I have, um, a summit coming up on the 31st and it's called The Empowerment Exchange,
and it's me and three other phenomenal people and we are just each giving little
workshops on, on our own little thing.
But basically like how to, how you can fall in love with your life, how
to build up your inner world when the world around you is falling apart,
how to love yourself, how to change the way you think, you know, things like that.
And, um, right now until the 17th, no, we're past that, so, yeah.
Um,
well, right now there is no sell on tickets, but if you, you know, hear
this before the 31st, I don't know when you're planning for this to air, but,
and you want a ticket, you let me know.
I'll, I'll, I'll get you a, a cheaper, uh, I'll get you a code for, for like 75% off.
But, um, yeah, we're just trying to change the world.
So I, I, I actually started The Empowerment Exchange, I picked
these people because of the impact they had on my life when
I met them through my podcast.
And they each do different stuff, like one's a human design expert, one, um,
teaches you how to use music and spirituality.
And that music is spirituality and music is everything.
And then a spirituality coach who talks about the importance of
spirituality, how to like implement some spirituality from the ground up.
You know, things like that.
So we're just different aspects of healing basically, and we're just bringing it all
together for a three hour little summit.
Um, but yeah, that's kind of what I'm doing is just, I, I show the world
on my podcast, through conversations, how to be more vulnerable, how
to show up for yourself, how to be your most authentic self.
Just through conversations I'm just modeling that stuff, you know?
And, and, and people hear about my learning and growth and other
people's learning and growth, and I just feel like hearing people's
story helps you apply it to your life the way you need to, you know?
So, you know, that leads us back to the beginning, be the change
you want to see in the world.
And, and if we live that aspect, it's a wonderful thing.
Malisa, is there anything that we've missed that you'd like
to cover before we end this?
I don't think so.
I, I guess I would just, I would just sum it up again and just, and
just say like, It is, It's not as hard as we're making it out to be.
The reason my show is called Emotionally Unavailable is because we are all
emotionally unavailable until we understand that fact about ourselves.
We can continue the narrative of relationships, or the only place that
attachment, you know, disorders or maladaptive attachment pops up, it's,
it's showing up in every minute of every day of your life until you address it.
And, um, I just want people to understand that the key to all
of this really is learning to embrace every ounce of who you are.
And I would just repeat what I said in the beginning, Jamie from Australia taught me
this, That, uh, life is not for healing.
We heal so that we can live life and get the most out of it.
We're here for a very specific experience.
Experience it, love yourself, you know?
Let yourself heal enough to be able to receive all of the
things life has to offer you.
And if you want help with that, reach, reach out.
And, and it's always okay to be who you truly are, don't let
anybody tell you any different.
Malisa, it's been a pleasure speaking with you today.
Thank you for sharing here on the podcast with us.
Thank you for having me, had a great time.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.