Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate.
Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn.
We are all Dead America, we can all learn something.
To learn, we must challenge what we already understand.
The way we do that is through conversation.
Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best
conversations happen with ourselves.
Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something new right now.
Today, we are speaking with Kristal DeSantis.
She is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she is also an author.
Her book is Strong, A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man.
Kristal, could you please introduce yourself and let people know just
a little more about you, please?
Kristal DeSantis: Hi, so I'm Kristal DeSantis, and like you said, I'm a
licensed marriage and family therapist.
Um, I am married, I live in Austin, I have two dogs and a big, big chubby cat.
And yeah, as an author, uh, Strong, Relationship Field Guide for the Modern
Man is my first book, my only book so far.
And yeah, I'm excited to be here and have this conversation with you.
Ed Watters: Yeah, it's, it's great having you because this is kind of
one of those things that people really need to speak up about right now.
Especially in our time, the modern man.
Could you emphasize and explain what that means to you, first of all?
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
I think, you know, the way I am using it in the book and what I'm talking about
is it's basically any man that's trying to navigate the modern world right now.
Um, that is maybe noticing a break from the traditional models of masculinity
or kind of the traditional relationship roles that men have maybe in the
past, or, you know, past generations.
Um, it was maybe a little bit more clear, like kind of the roles of men
and, you know, what was expected of them.
And in the modern world, it's just things have gotten a lot more complicated.
So I just wanted to speak to kind of what I noticed a lot of modern
men were struggling with, which is, you know, how do we navigate all of
these, all of these new rules, all of these new paths, um, all of these
new conversations, and all of these new changes without losing ourselves?
Ed Watters: Yeah, that's very interesting.
I find it kind of difficult at times because, you know, you never know whose
toes you are going to step on anymore.
And that gets a little confrontational, if you will, for many people.
So, you know, it's important to have conversations, especially about
men and women working together.
Relationship,
it's a big thing.
And a big part of that is always going to be communication.
So what we're doing here is we're opening up conversation pathways for individuals.
And I think that is really where most people are going to
reconcile their differences.
From my personal experiences, I understand that communicating with my wife about who
and what she is, no matter what I think who and what she is, it's very important.
So, communication is a big part of relationship.
What's your take on relationship communication?
Kristal DeSantis: I'd say that's probably the main thing that brings
people to come to see me for couples counseling, right, is, you know, when
I'm asking them what brings you here?
Often, kind of the number one thing is we have communication issues.
Um, and, you know, as, as I'm sure you, you know, and you've, you know,
experienced and taught is, you know, sometimes communication issues are, is
a symptom of a deeper disconnection.
But also a lot of things can be rectified through better communication,
right?
And so it is, it is a really crucial part of healthy relationships.
And especially, like you said, navigating, um, you know, what might
seem like a big divide between men and women or, you know, there's a lot of
noise out there about, you know, women are like this, or men are like this.
But ultimately what I found at the end of the day is, you know, people that
want to be in healthy relationships just want the skills to be able to communicate
with their partner and to make their relationship work for them so they can
both be happy, and connected, and healthy and thriving, and create the lives
and the family that they want to have.
And so I really wanted to speak to that, you know, those people that,
you know, regardless of all the noise out there, they wanted to listen
to each other and make it work.
Ed Watters: Yeah, that's huge.
You know, people can't be afraid of the no, when you get told
no, I don't agree with you.
You know, sometimes disagreements come because there's problems.
And if you have a disagreement, that's the best time to really know
who and understand who you are.
It's, it's kind of tricky to navigate at times.
And, you know, there's unique challenges that you say men face in today's society.
Could you talk to us about that?
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
I think, you know, part of, kind of the premise of my book was naming that,
you know, a lot of men, um, and this is, you know, just based on research.
Um, but also in my conversations with men is, you know, they kind of
felt like how they were raised to show up in a relationship like, you
know, you got to have a good job, you know, happy wife, happy life,
be the protector, be the provider.
You know, she wants kids, make sure she can stay home and raise them
and you got to go pay the bills.
And, you know, um, is that, that wasn't necessarily working to make
their marriages happy anymore.
Um, and so that's kind of the purpose of this book is, you know,
it's like, I heard a lot of men saying like, I'm a really good man.
Why is my wife saying I'm a bad partner?
And it's, you know, and so really kind of navigating that difference
that, you know, what, what makes you a good man when it comes to, you
know, the character qualities or, um, the characteristics of what people
perceive a good man are in the world.
Like you have a good job, you have a stable income, or whatever it is, doesn't
necessarily translate to being, to having the skills to be a good partner.
And I really wanted to say that, you know, getting the skills to be a good
partner is really just about learning.
And it's about practicing, and it's about being vulnerable, and being
open to learning those new skills and having those difficult conversations.
Um, and it really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you're,
you know, you're worth as a man.
And that's really where I found, um, some really interesting conversations
with a lot of men where, you know, in the past, maybe there was the
emphasis on, you know, if you have a good job, you will be a good partner.
If you are able to bring home the bacon and, and provide for your family in that
way, you're automatically a good partner.
Like that's, that's the baseline.
Um, and then same thing, you know, if you want to protect your family, you know?
Maybe back in the day, that was a very cut and dry.
I wouldn't say it was easy, but it was cut and dry as far as like, you know, I
mean, if we go way back is, you got to be able to fight off any intruders, right?
You got to be able to kill any bears, and fight any lions, and, you know,
keep your family safe from, you know, the marauding hordes of thieves
that might try to steal your farm.
Um, but now, you know, I, I heard a lot of men say, like, I still want to
be the protector, but I, I don't know how modern women want to be protected.
Like, you know, I don't want to be, uh, overbearing, I don't want to be
a creep, I don't want, you know, to get labeled as something that I'm not.
So how do I embody this kind of masculine urge that I have to be a
protector in my family, um, without being perceived as controlling, or
aggressive, or something negative?
Um, and so that's really what, you know, kind of was coming up for me when I
was writing this book is, you know, how can, how can we honor that, you know?
These masculine traits are very, very necessary, very present, very
important, and yet they do look different in a modern relationship, right?
Where maybe there is dual income, you're not the sole provider, you
know, what does that mean then?
What else can you provide?
Uh, same thing, they, you know, your wife might not need you to fight everyone on
your neighborhood and, you know, fight the HOA, but how else can you show up
as a protector in the relationship?
Ed Watters: Yeah, it's very tough.
Especially if you're a young man today.
And, you know, I remember the insecurities that I used to feel.
It, it was tough just being what was perceived to be a man.
And it really wasn't, it was a facade.
And many, many times all it would have taken was sit down and actually
have that tough conversation.
We, we feel uncomfortable sometimes because we don't want
to offend the person that we love.
And it's kind of troubling that men are getting a bad name, but it's, it's not,
not a bad thing per se, really, because men need to wake up in a big way, too.
Look, we, we have to allow our wives, our partners, to be who they are.
And if we're deep in a relationship, we should have
already known who they are anyway.
And that means allowing them to communicate.
And, you know, if they have an issue with you, you need to let
them address that and hear it.
My wife used to say, Well, you never hear me, it goes over your head.
And she's right.
I was so busy trying to play that role that I assumed I heard what she said.
And sometimes that's troubling because when we play it back, I didn't hear
forty percent of what my wife said to me.
So there is a trouble spot.
When we are providers, we have to stop and be a good listener.
Because if we can't know what is troubling our partner, how
can we protect them from it?
So it's back to that communication thing again, isn't it?
Kristal DeSantis: And this is really where, you know, I often say, you know,
most of the people that come to see me, when they say communication issues, you
know, I often like to point out like, well, you know, both of you clearly
are able to communicate well, like you both have jobs, you know, you've
completed education, you're, you've made the appointment to come see me.
So, you know, when we talk about communication, it's not so much
simply about transmitting information, but it's about, like you said, that
understanding on the deeper level.
Of, you know, sometimes communicating about more vulnerable issues, right?
How do we, how do we listen to that without defensiveness?
Without, like you said, kind of, it goes in one ear, it goes out the other.
Or you're listening to defend yourself and say, Well, that's really not how it goes.
Or, you know, it goes through your own filter of what you
think they want from you.
Um, and so really that communication is, you know, and I, in my book and
part of the work I do with couples is, I also talk about how, you know,
men and women do get socialized to communicate very differently, right?
That's just kind of, you know, the reality of the way, you know,
little girls and little boys get socialized with their friend groups.
Um, and so then you put these two people in a relationship and expect them to
kind of communicate well and then people are surprised when it doesn't happen.
And so that's also something I also want to talk about is, one
is not better than the other.
But it's like having two people from two different countries,
two different cultures that speak different languages, you know?
And you throw them in a room and say, All right, now figure this out.
They're going to struggle.
So finding those kind of common points of communication that like, Hey, when
I say blank, this is what I mean.
And then when you say blank, this is what you mean.
Um, and so yeah, I talk about the kind of four positions of conversation that
often women are socialized to listen and join with each other, right?
So they just like, they hold space for each other.
They empathize.
Oh my gosh, girl, that was so hard.
I'm so sorry to hear that, right?
They join with the experience.
Um, whereas again, and it's not totally cut and dry, but what I often see
is men are socialized to fix things.
You know, if your buddy's like, Man, my TV is, you know, acting up.
It's like, well, you're not just telling, telling me that so I
can go, Oh, that sucks, man.
You can't watch your favorite shows.
It's you're telling me so I can give you a solution.
Um, so thinking, and then also debating, that's something else I saw that when
it comes to men socializing with men, often they find a lot of bonding in,
like, kind of intellectual debate.
Um, Which again is very bonding, but when you put it in a relationship with
somebody who's looking to be listened to, and you come at them with debate,
it, it immediately causes a conflict.
Yeah, so again, just like, yeah.
Ed Watters: Yeah, I like that a lot.
Uh, your book, you say it's based on six pillars of a good relationship.
Could you tell us more about that?
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
So that was something, you know, as a therapist, I wanted
to kind of boil things down.
You know, when we talk about relationship issues, we talk about communication,
sometimes it can feel really overwhelming.
Like, what does it mean to have a good relationship?
Um, and who gets to set that standard?
So I really wanted to boil it down to kind of like the psychological pillars of
what a healthy relationship looks like.
Um, so these are the six pillars.
Um, number one is safety.
So a healthy relationship is a safe relationship, right?
Not only physically safe where, you know, there's no physical violence or, um,
you know, throwing things when you're upset, but also emotional safety, right?
That you can be yourself, you can be heard, you can be listened to.
And at the end of the day, your conflict doesn't escalate
to a point that feels unsafe.
Alright, so safety in a relationship is kind of fundamental, so that's the
S. The T is trust, which, obviously, I think, you know, if you don't
trust each other, it's not going to be a very healthy relationship.
There's going to be, you know, toxic controlling behaviors,
there's going to be, um, you know, anxious, anxiety, jealousy, um,
when there's no trust, right?
And all of that can lead to a very unhealthy dynamic in a relationship.
And then R is for respect.
Respect is so important in a healthy relationship, right?
Knowing that your partner respects you, respects the skills and, and you know,
strengths you bring to the relationship, respects your boundaries, respects your
limits when it comes to, you know, you need personal recharge time, you need
things that make you feel healthy.
And so just, you know, again, without respect in a relationship, contempt and
resentment starts to build, and that leads to some really, really ugly, um,
ugly patterns in a relationship, right?
And disrespectful language, communication, um, you know, all of that takes a toll.
So having safety, trust, and respect are kind of the first three
pillars of a healthy relationship.
Um and then the O N G is kind of where I say like, you know, If your relationship
is going to survive, we need the S T R. We need the safety, trust, and respect
just for basic relationship survival.
But then if you want to take it to that next level and make sure that you
keep growing together throughout the years, I mean, you know, hopefully your
relationship will last your lifetime.
So the O is openness, continuing to be open with each other
about how you're changing.
Whether it's learning new things, having different needs
at different stages of life, um, and also physical changes, right?
Your bodies are going to change as you go throughout the years.
Being really open with each other, you know, how are you doing?
You know, are you staying, are you staying connected?
Um, yeah.
So openness is so important to make sure a relationship doesn't grow apart, right?
And then N is nurturing, which, you know, it's so interesting when I was
looking at the research about like, you know, what's the difference between a
relationship that kind of fits, like, it looks good on paper but doesn't feel good?
It's that difference of a relationship that kind of checks the boxes
versus really feels nurturing and that the people come to it for
strength and come to it for comfort.
And almost that, like, if I have good news, I want to tell my partner because
they're my best friend, they're my spouse.
And I know that they're going to nurture my dreams, they're
going to be happy for me.
Um, and just, you know, that nurturing aspect of a relationship is kind of
what makes, you know, what looks good on paper actually feels good in real life.
And then G is that kind of, kind of final fairy dust of a
relationship, which is generosity.
Which is that mindset shift between, you know, again, when I was kind of
going back to the fundamentals of what's, what happens when somebody
stops thinking about themselves and starts thinking about a couple is
they have to switch from a survival mindset to a generosity mindset, right?
Because if you're, you know, living in a cave and you find, you know, a
piece of bread, you're going to keep it for yourself if it's about survival.
But if you're going to thrive in a relationship, you're going to have
to be generous and say, Hey guys, I found a piece of bread, you know?
So that we can all share, and that we can all survive, and
that you lift everybody together.
Um, so that's that shift from that kind of selfish mindset to the generous mindset.
And that's really what I see as often, kind of the hardest part of being married
or being in a committed relationship is it's not all about you anymore.
Where, you know, so, so those are kind of, those are the six pillars
of a strong relationship and it's an easy to remember acronym.
So yeah, that's my book.
Ed Watters: I like that a lot.
Yeah.
Now I also was looking around the internet, found that you
talk about a new wave coming over America and around the internet,
it's called the TradWife movement.
And this kind of blew me away that there are so many women out there
thinking about being traditional.
And, uh, could you cover that for us, please?
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, I think there's,
so a couple of things, one thing is, you know, I think more people
are looking to kind of slow down and focus on what's important in life.
You know, this kind of push of towards, you know, more money, more jobs, acquiring
more stuff, and kind of push, push, push, push, push, I want to say since
COVID, it was kind of like the great reset in a way of like, you know, at the
end of the day, what does it all mean?
What is really important?
What really matters?
Um, and kind of going back to, you know, at the end of the day, if you
have people who love you, you have a family that you can pour into, um, and
more of that, like focus on, I guess what you would call more of that kind of
traditional values of, you know, at the end of the day, isn't it about family?
Isn't it about community?
Isn't it about living a life that you can, you can be proud of, right?
It's not just look how much stuff I have, right?
Um, so, you know, and it's, it's funny because like anything,
everything can get capitalized on.
Um, so I think what I saw is there's this super desire for like slowing
back down, getting more in touch with nature, getting more in touch with,
you know, um, your relationships, your family, nurturing back to that.
And then of course there are the people that are going to capitalize
on it and turn it into a, you know, something they can make money off of.
Um, so there is kind of a TradWife movement of women who are,
you know, showing that they can be, you know, stay at home, bake bread
from scratch, raise their children.
Um, and I guess I want to be careful because some of it is, um, is it, it's
an actual, um, like industry, right?
So these women are actually making a lot of money doing that.
Um, but then there's off, of course, always the,
there are actually those people that have always focused on those core values and
having those strong kind of families,
um, strong relationships.
That that's their primary investment, right?
And so that traditional value of, at the end of the day, so what if you have all
the money in the world if you don't have time to spend with your family, right?
So what if you have the coolest car, or the biggest, baddest job, or, you know,
whatever, you just got some award, if your wife doesn't like you or your husband,
and you haven't had a conversation about anything real in ten years, you know?
Um, and so I am seeing a resurgence, especially among younger generations
of people that are kind of being reminded that, like at the end of
the day, we don't want to spend our whole lives working just to work.
What is the quality of our lives and what does the quality of
our relationships look like?
And that's something I find so encouraging is, you know, at the end
of the day, having the choice to stay at, you know, having the luxury to be
able to have one parent stay at home and raise the kids or take time off.
Um, I mean, that's, that's also something that I think, um, we need to
really talk about is, you know, where's the support system for this, right?
Where's the community that protects and helps these families that
want to have that lifestyle?
Otherwise, it's super hard, um, which is a shame because, you know, you
should be able to make the choice that works for your family and
have a society that supports you.
So anyway, that was a very long winded answer, but you know?
Ed Watters: That, that's great.
You know, that, that's what a podcast truly is.
Uh, it's a great thing to think about because, bottom line, each of us are
responsible for our own relationships and we kind of knit together this
concept or a bag to hold it all in.
And basically you carry your own bag and what you make that bag is unique.
And I don't care what John and Susie does, that's their business.
I really want to concentrate on what I do and how I treat others, regardless of
their race, religion, sexual orientation.
You know, that's none of my business, that's between them and whoever
they have to be together with, you know, that's none of my business.
And I truly think a lot of this is part of that slowing down.
Don't get caught into the hype of media.
People are trying to make money off of division, that's for sure.
And I really think a good conversation, even between you and somebody
that you might not agree with is always going to prevail and show
you you're not so far divided.
You think the same, you actually walk a lot of the same values, it's just,
you want your bag to be unique and I think we need to remember that.
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
And that's really what I, I highlight in my book is, you know, every relationship
has to be a bespoke relationship, right?
It's tailor made for you and your partner.
And you know, that's, that's kind of a little bit of a mindset
shift for a lot of people.
Because what I found is there are people that feel like, well, no, there's a
script I'm supposed to follow, right?
You grow up, you go to high school, you go to college, you get a job, you
find a partner, you have, you know?
And it's like, at what point do you need to sit back and say, Hold on,
what is it that I actually want?
And what kind of life do I actually want to create?
Um, And again, these fundamentals of a healthy relationship, like
you said, like communication, it's going to be valuable no matter
what kind of setup you have, right?
If you both work, if you stay home, if you have two kids, have
three kids, have no kids, have, you know, whatever, it doesn't matter.
Having those fundamentals where you both feel safe, you trust each other,
you respect each other, you can be open with each other, you know, you nurture
each other's hopes and dreams, and then ultimately you feel generously,
you know, you have each other's backs.
Um, and yeah.
You know, also I think that's something when you take that personal
accountability to say, It's also my job to show up that way in my relationship.
Um, it really kind of brings it back home to, are you ready to be in a relationship?
Are you ready to do the work to invest in having a healthy relationship?
Or are you kind of just quote unquote following the next step of
what you think people are supposed to do at this stage in life?
Oh gosh, I'm twenty-five.
I should probably, like, do it well or don't do it, you know?
Um, because you deserve, again, like I see so many people, um, and, you know,
part of my passion population is working with first responders and veterans.
And, you know, here are some people that have some of the most fundamental
foundational jobs of our society.
And seeing the impact that a healthy relationship has on the mental
health, the physical health, the emotional health, the stress level of
somebody who's doing a job like that,
you see how important healthy relationships are, right?
And so again, no matter what job you do, your, the quality of your relationships
will determine the quality of your life in so many different ways, right?
Your personal relationships, your relationships with your
children, your relationships with your friends, your coworkers.
Um, so just giving yourself kind of that reminder that investing in
your relationship skills, your skills for communication, your listening
skills, um, your skills for critical thinking and being able to talk to
somebody who has a different opinion than you, um, because believe it or
not, you and your partner are going to be two different people, right?
You're going to have two different opinions.
Um, so really committing to developing those skills for yourself, um, you
know, for the sake of your own health, your own, you know, mental, relational,
emotional health and wellness, um, is always just going to be a good investment.
Ed Watters: Yeah, I, I really agree with that.
You know, and I see a lot today where it, we have this like grade school
mentality or high school mentality going along with our society.
And I, I think that's really shameful because it shows a lower
emotional intelligence level.
And I, I really, I expect more from our country than what I've been seeing.
And, and I think a good relationship is always a higher
emotional intelligence level.
And when you work on that, you're going to really enjoy your relationship.
We, we now have so much intent on our relationship, we, we do it with intent.
And each week we carve out special time just for our relationship,
our communication skill.
We, we actually read books each week.
Uh, we take turns reading to each other and this actually helps us apply a model
to speak and communicate about what we just talked about or read about.
And I think living with that intention is very important and it's going to
allow people to grow that emotional intelligence level when they really
put focus on your relationship intent.
Kristal DeSantis: Absolutely.
Yes, so much.
You know, it's, it's so interesting how much, um, and I, I love to hear that.
I love, I love hearing from people who, um, recognize that, you know, having a
healthy relationship takes intentionality.
It takes investment, um, it takes effort, but it doesn't necessarily
have to be like, you know, hard work.
It can be like your life's work, right?
But it can be super fulfilling, um, but it's not, it's not nothing, you know?
And that's what, um, I see so often is, there's this emphasis on dating, right?
There's this emphasis on like, you know, how to get a
partner, how to find a person.
Um, And there's not enough on, well, how do you keep that person?
How do you keep that relationship healthy?
Like, you know, it'd be like, if all of the career advice was only about
getting the interview, it's like, well, then you have to keep the job, right?
Um, and so that's also where I would hope that people start to think
of relationships differently it's like, you know, it's not, and then
they met happily ever after the end.
It's like, that's really the start of the story.
Ed Watters: Yeah.
I can't agree more, Kristal.
You know, it's funny how things change.
Time equals change no matter who you are.
So tell us about your services that you offer people and how, how do people
get ahold of you to work with you?
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah, so right now I'm only licensed in Texas.
Um, so I can do therapy in Texas, but, you know, I put out
a lot of stuff on my Instagram.
Um, that's not therapy, but it's more like psychoeducation.
I talk about, you know, I share any kind of resources I find, other book
recommendations, movie recommendations.
Um, I try to, you know, be a connector.
And if somebody reaches out to me from somewhere outside of Texas,
um, I have a really good network among my therapist friends.
So, you know, please reach out to me.
I'll hook you up with somebody in your area, um, or lead
you to some online resources.
Because, you know, I'm really passionate about this work and especially for men.
I know I'm a woman and, you know, I have my own little niche, but there are
so many men out there, like yourself, who are helping to elevate men.
And so, you know, I'm always kind of creating a database of resources
for men who want to do the work of, you know, improving their
relationship skills, improving their communication, how to be a good listener.
Um, so yeah, people are free to reach out to me on Instagram @ATX therapist.
If you're in Texas and you want to work with me, um, I have a practice
that's virtual and in person in Austin.
Um, my website is just strong.love.
And then, of course, I have my book, you know, which again, I'm all about
sharing the information, um, hopefully.
Not everybody can access therapy, um, you know, it's, it's still not
always the easiest thing to get.
So I wanted to make sure I could, I could, you know, put as much as I could
in this book, so that if, you know, there's a self motivated man out there
who's like, Gosh, I just don't have the time to go to therapy, or I, you know,
I just can't find the right fit, um, you know, here's, here's some skills,
here's a starter, here's a primer.
Um, so yeah, my book is on Amazon.
I also did an Audible.
So, you know, if you're on a long drive or something, you can
listen to it at your leisure.
Ed Watters: Yeah, that's great.
You know, and, and a big thing about books and, you know, Audible and all of these
videos, a man can sit incognito and help himself without letting his friends know.
See, and that, that's a big thing to start the development is to give
them the place to be without eyes on.
So I think what you're doing is very important, Kristal.
Uh, do you have a call to action for our listeners today?
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
I would say whatever step you take to invest in yourself, um, take it.
And if it starts with the call to action of getting this book and, and reading
it, um, or sharing this podcast with a friend, or, you know, um, listening to
the, to the rest of your podcasts, do, do one thing that will take you in the
direction of the type of relationships that you want to have in your life.
You know, one thing I've seen with a lot of men is they really tend to be
in the position where they, you know, it's, it's really interesting because for
all the narrative that like all men are so selfish and, you know, narcissistic
and there's a lot of that noise out there.
What my experience has been is often men struggle to put themselves first
to, to give themselves the same kind of care that they would want to give
to somebody else that they love.
And so that's really the call to action I would say is, you know,
Give yourself the kind of support that you would give to a friend.
You know, if you're struggling, if you're feeling a little confused in
your relationship, maybe again, you're like, I'm trying to do everything right.
Why isn't my partner helping?
Um, you know, take that seriously and do yourself a favor and,
you know, get my book or start looking at some resources because,
you know, you deserve to have a good life.
You deserve to have a healthy relationship, um, and you deserve to
feel empowered and competent, right?
Feeling competent as a man can be really, um, mentally a real
positive mental state, right?
Feeling powerful, feeling competent.
So if you don't feel like that, take it seriously and reach out.
Ed Watters: Yeah, I like it.
Uh, Kristal, it's been a good conversation today and I want to say
thank you for sharing with us and being here today with us on the podcast.
Kristal DeSantis: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Ed Watters: Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.