Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate.
Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn.
We are all Dead America, we can all learn something.
To learn, we must challenge what we already understand.
The way we do that is through conversation.
Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best
conversations happen with ourselves.
Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something new right now.
Today, we are speaking with JoAnn Fawcett.
She is an author, she has two books out.
Her first book, Midlife Magic.
The second book, The Prince Was Wrong.
JoAnn, could you please introduce yourself?
Let people know just a little more about you, please.
JoAnn Fawcett: Sure.
Thank you for having me on your show.
I am based in Portland, Oregon, I used to live in Northern California.
I've been a bookkeeper for over forty years, and I'm happy to say I'm
going to start cutting back on that because I'm turning seventy tomorrow.
So this is, I get to start slowing down a little bit.
I've been a bookkeeper for a long time, I have a grown daughter, I have
three almost grown grandchildren.
You know, a couple are still teenagers.
But I've got two in college and stuff so that's pretty exciting.
And, um, before COVID hit, I, I started writing my first book about
my marriages, many marriages and how I also got into the realm of UFOs, and
witchcraft, and paranormal, and fairies.
And then as I split up from husband number seven, my, one of my book
editors from the first book said, You should write a book about narcissism.
Cause that's what I was experiencing and so I did.
And so we have, The Prince Was Wrong, uh, Leaving The Narcissist Behind.
Because his nickname is The Prince and I absolutely left him behind.
So there we go.
Ed Watters: All right.
You know, seven husbands, I want to go there first.
What intrigued you to try this seven times?
I've been with my wife for forty-one years now, and it's tough.
But I would never do it a second time, let alone seven.
Fill me in on the details, what is that all about?
JoAnn Fawcett: Sure.
And I'm happy to say that I do have a brother and sister that have both been
married fifty and fifty-one years.
So that's, you know, it's nice to see that.
But, you know, I grew up in the 50s and 60s watching Leave it to Beaver and all
those fun little shows where the wife gets to stay at home and you've got the
white picket fence and everybody's happy.
My parents did not always have a happy marriage, there was a lot of dysfunction.
So, um, I learned a, a lot of bad patterns there, how to be a codependent.
And then when I was about twelve, I joined the Mormon church.
So I was a Mormon for thirty years and the goal is, you know, you find Mr.
Right and you get married and stay married forever and you have a bunch of kids.
Well, um, I married five Mormons, they were all losers, and
I've married two non Mormons.
My daughter's father was not a member and he committed suicide when she was a baby.
And, um, and then husband number seven is in prison and I met him in prison.
And that's when I left the Merman church, not, you know, just cause
I decided it was okay to leave.
Um, and so my, my goal was always, you know, my image was, well,
the way you fulfill yourself in life is you get married and
you have this happy family.
And you know, I want, I wanted that, I always wanted that.
I wanted a lot of kids, the universe said no, one is enough for you.
Especially cause it, you know, I don't know if it, somebody knew I was
going to have trouble staying married.
But, um, and then, so I kept, once I had her, then I figured, well,
I need to find a father for her.
You know, the poor little thing needs a dad.
Well, I just, I should have stayed single because I kept finding terrible dads.
But the other thing is in the Mormon church, you, you're not supposed to be
having sex before marriage and you're not supposed to live together before marriage.
And I learned, you know, in hindsight, I learned it's like, we never really talked
about all the really important things
so that you can make sure you're really compatible and on the
same page before you get married.
You know, how are we gonna handle our money?
How do we feel about this or that?
You know, how are we gonna or how much, how much are we gonna serve the church?
It's like, and are we on the same page with tithing?
And, and how are we, what are our parenting styles?
So all these things that they don't really actually tell you at church.
I just assumed, well, if we're both Mormons, then everything's going to
be fine and we're going to be fine.
And, you know, if, since I met pretty much most of them at church dances, it's
like, well, if we can dance together, we're going to be fine getting married.
And, you know, so planning weddings was always really fun, and, and all that.
But, um, I didn't lay the groundwork.
And my parents didn't say you should be doing this and this
and this before you get married.
And they actually only told me, I think there's a couple of husbands
where my mom said, Yeah, you know, you probably shouldn't marry him.
And I'm, I'm gonna anyway, because the spirit told me to.
And no offense, you know, it's like, again, I was a Christian
for a really long time.
And now I just, I listen to my intuition and not something that I
think is, you know, a message from God.
And no offense to anybody who has, has that connection.
Um, but it's just, yeah, it just, and I have lots of friends, or I had
many friends, I used to, that are happy Mormons and happy families.
And, you know, I have stepkids who are still Mormon and that's all great.
So I know it can work.
Um, I just picked the wrong spouse too many times, but I kept trying to
do it over and, I mean, I kept trying because I wanted a happy family.
And, you know, my daughter is like, You know, I didn't really need that, mom.
You know, I have a great uncle, he was a great role model.
I didn't need all those lousy stepfathers you inflicted on me.
And thankfully, especially since I've moved up near where she lives, it's
like we've now been able to heal our relationship, which has been a Godsend.
You know, it's like, it's, it's been great that we can finally sit down
and talk about whatever angst I put her through having to deal with,
because some of those, um, I mean, some of them were just jerks, but
some of them were physically abusive.
One, one, especially.
One, only a couple little, you know, maybe one incident, but the other one used to
hit her frequently when she was a toddler.
So, you know?
Ed Watters: Yeah.
That's, that's rough JoAnn.
You know, I was raised Mormon myself and my mother she got, yeah, she got divorced
and got remarried without permission, got excommunicated from the church.
Several years, I'm talking twenty,
yeah, yeah, twenty, twenty-five years later, they finally
accepted her back into the church.
And it's kind of, yeah, well, it's really funny how church will try
to do that, you know, they, they, don't think about the consequences.
I don't really believe they do because it disrupts people in many ways.
You know, and with the Mormon church, you have the FLDS, you know, and
that sect of the Mormons, they, you know, they live that way, polygamy.
The, yeah, the, the, steeping in that culture is deep for me, and I understand
some of it, and so many people get turned off of God because of men that produce
images that are unrealistic for man.
And that's really the grace of God, that I see, is we don't have to hold
ourselves to the standards of man.
And people, they, they don't recognize that.
A relationship with God is personal, and it's none of my business
what you and God does together.
And, you know, frankly, it's none of anybody's business what me
and my relationship to God is.
And people get bent out of shape over religion and it's
just really childish behavior.
And, you know, if people don't stand up and say that, it's
just going to continue to grow.
And I really think that part of our duty now is to stand up,
speak out of all atrocities no matter if it's small or large.
We have to educate ourselves to educate others so we can
have a more peaceful world.
What's your thoughts on that?
JoAnn Fawcett: I, I love that.
And it's interesting because I didn't leave the church because I'd had
any big trauma and even not because I had five lousy Mormon husbands.
Um, you know, that's, that was, yeah, and it's funny because one of them
actually went on to be a bishop.
It's like, Huh?
He became a bishop, how did that happen?
You know, he wasn't that spiritual when I knew him.
But, um, I, I met husband number seven and he, he's in prison and all of a sudden
it's like, and he was a very interesting person until, you know, he wasn't.
But, um, but we were together twenty-five years.
So it's like, Oh, I could spend half the day at church or I could go visit him.
And all of a sudden I just didn't need church.
So it just, it wasn't a big traumatic separation for me, I just stopped going.
I told the bishop, Sorry, I met somebody, I'm going to go there.
And I can't be that primary music teacher anymore, you know, it's like, So see ya.
And, you know, the, the, you know, they have home teachers.
So they have visitor, visiting people that like to come give you little messages.
I let them still come, I didn't care.
But I wasn't going to go to church and I, I've never regretted that decision.
And I, I am on a very spiritual path and I have my own spiritual
practices and, but you know, I still have friends in the church.
And, and I can see, it's like, I don't, I don't
go around talking about it being a cult.
My daughter, you know, she's, she's very vehement about it being a cult.
But it's like, you know, it just didn't work for me anymore and I'm
really happy with the path I've chosen.
And, you know, but I've met a lot of recovering Mormons, I guess, as
we call ourselves, especially at UFO conferences so it's kind of interesting.
But you know, yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's kind of funny.
But, um, yeah, so I, I'm glad I left and
now I'm a practicing witch and that works really well for me.
So, oh, oh, I was going to say in, in real honesty, it is, but that's also
why the book is called Midlife Magic.
But, you know, I, I've learned too, because I do talk about
UFOs and aliens and all that.
But for me and what you said about making this a better world, it's like, I, I think
there's this wonderful, there can be.
You know, we have the capacity to
be spiritual and kind and compassionate and, you know, connect on a better
level with our fellow humans.
But also if we could just raise ourselves up, we could connect with so many
other entities and species who are also very kind and friendly and spiritual.
They just are not human.
So, or they might be human looking, they just don't live here.
But, you know, but there's a whole lot of other entities out there who would like to
connect with us if we were on their level.
And we're not, usually, yet, but we can be.
Ed Watters: That's an interesting topic, you know, because I myself
have witnessed and I have experienced things that physically I can't
explain, but they are there.
And, you know, I've had confirmation that I'm not alone with what I witnessed
because my brother witnessed it also.
And, you know, thirty, forty years later, I start talking about this with him
and I asked him, Do you remember that?
And he says, Yeah, I remember that.
And it's like that, that just turned a light bulb on for me.
And it's, so what I experienced as a child, and we're really susceptible
to these forces as children, you know, it wasn't good what I witnessed.
You know, and there's forces out there that are both bad and good
because those good forces were right with me and they showed me the way
through this darkness and showed me that you don't have to fear that
dark evil force.
And you know, it's, it's truly about that good and evil here.
And if, if we recognize that you get to choose if you're going to be good or
evil, and we all recognize what that is.
So whatever we state we, or claim we are is really louder through our
actions is what I'm trying to say.
So what's your thoughts on that?
JoAnn Fawcett: Well, I, I love that because, um, you know, again, I'm coming
out of a twenty-five year relationship with a narcissist who on the surface
was charming and he had me fooled.
I mean, we had great conversations and he taught me many things, especially about
aliens and UFO stuff and the military.
And, but you know, um, he was always used to getting his own way.
So as long as you don't rock the boat, you know, you were fine and
you didn't get his nasty side.
Until I left and then started standing up for myself and then this whole
nastiness came out and I've got proof.
You know, I've got it all written down because we were writing letters.
But I, I, I know that, you know, he made it sound like, well, everybody
at prison just thinks I'm wonderful.
It's like, really?
Okay, now that I'm away from you and talking to some of those people,
that isn't exactly what I'm hearing.
And, you know, he thought he was, you know, the best author, writer
ever and he was always writing and I just assumed, you know, he was
right because I liked what he wrote.
And then I'm talking to a mutual friend of ours and he goes, Yeah,
I didn't think that was so great.
And he loves my stuff.
It's like, Wow, this is cool.
I've sold more books than my ex husband.
Um, but, but you know, it's interesting because I was going to, and I don't know
how this fits in, but I used to speak at different conferences on the UFO circuit.
And I spoke several times in England.
And what I loved, and this is very spiritual for me, but so, even though
I'm talking about aliens and military operations with aliens, every time I
spoke, behind me, I had so many be, you know, so many, my father in law and, you
know, these are all, nobody could, I mean,
they're dead or just not even human.
It's like, so, my father in law is always behind me on one shoulder,
my left shoulder, and then all these angelic or fairy beings, you
know, a combination of all that.
I could, I could feel the heat, the energy.
So just, I had this holding up of, and I wasn't afraid to speak, but I had
this holding up and support behind me.
It's like, you know, you know, you're telling, you're doing the right thing.
You're, you're, you're giving this, you know.
You're doing a good thing by speaking.
And then one of my spirit guides who is not human, she's over here on my
right shoulder, it's like, that was like, and especially when I was giving
a quote from one of her kind, you know, she's just like right there.
And it was like, so hot and, temperature wise.
And, you know, I had some psychics come up after me and, so one of them
clearly had never believed any talk I had given when I'd been there before.
And he goes, You know, I usually don't believe what you say.
And I go, I know.
And cause I've always watched him, he was always near the
front row rolling his eyes at me.
And it's like, but he goes, but I, we could see who was behind you.
And I go, That's good, cause I can feel them.
I can't see them, but I, but they could see them.
So it was lovely.
And you know, it's such a positive feeling.
And, you know, no matter who, who your connection is, you know, um, the
positive support really holds you up.
And that really is one of the things that helps me be a better person.
Because like, for me, one of the things that saved me is, I mean, I used to
walk when I was in California, but now I live in this beautiful neighborhood
and there's parks and everything and, but I've made it a, a very spiritual
practice to walk for exercise, but also walk without looking at my phone.
And I'm talking to the trees and the birds and the plants and I'm
touching the trees and I'm, you know, talking to everything and telling
the plants how pretty they are.
And, you know, and I get inspiration and healing and just, you know, this
spiritual uplift just by walking.
Because I'm, it's almost like my meditation,
that's easier for me to meditate that way than it is for me
to sit still for very long.
But, you know, it's just so wonderful that you can have those ways to support
you and lift you and ground you.
And, you know, that's one of the things that's helped heal me
through this nasty last marriage.
So, besides all the other things I've done, but you know, that's,
that's really been so helpful for me.
Because when times get rough, I can just go take a walk.
Or instead of screaming at him, you know, yeah, yeah.
And I couldn't scream at him anyway.
It is.
And that's, that's what I've learned.
And that's hopefully the, the essence of my book is, you know,
you got to learn to stand up for yourself and heal yourself and become
the best person that you can be.
You know, I don't wallow in, Oh my God, I was married seven times and I'm so stupid.
And you know, how dare I do this?
It's like, that's, you know, I, I've done that.
Thank you.
I just, I can't live like that anymore.
It's like, yes, I've had many moments where I cried and vented to my daughter
and, Listen to this letter he just wrote.
But, you know, but then, and the book, you know, I tried to keep a very even keel
in the book, I would express my emotions.
Well, this is what he said, and this is how I felt.
But the end game of that was, it's like, I took the time to really work on myself.
So, you know, we've been apart, I moved up here in 2020, so
we've been apart, you know, four years and divorced fully for one.
And I've worked that whole time on myself.
You know, I didn't start trying to date anybody till the divorce was final.
So I just worked on myself and, you know, worked on myself
and kept working on myself.
Therapy, and walking, and journaling, writing's become a
very magical healing tool for me.
So, yeah.
Ed Watters: Well, you know, what, what you've said here is
very important for us, because
I, I being married for a long time, I have experienced the
same thing with only one wife.
And the key here is helping yourself figure out who you are and walking that.
And, and it takes a lifetime to figure that out sometimes, and sometimes a
person's just not going to be that,
I have a muddy shoe theory, and the good mud will stay in the soles
of your crack of your shoes as you walk down this muddy trail of life.
The heavy mud, you've got to find a rock and scrape that stuff off.
Get it off, and keep going or else you're going to wear yourself out
before the end of your journey.
So if it's good mud in your cracks, you're going to carry
that with you and that's fine.
But if it's the heavy stuff, people, places, and things, that's the mud.
People, places, and things, wipe it off if it's heavy.
And heavy means, you know, narcissistic behaviors, uh, the people that want
to gaslight you, or any of these psychological terms you want to place
on the behavior that is childish
and inconsiderate of the other person.
That's really what we're talking about.
And that is an emotional intelligence.
And once you center yourself around that and start walking into your
greatness, it doesn't matter if you've got ten partners or one partner,
you're going to experience that mud.
And you have the right to scrape it off or leave it there and wear yourself out.
JoAnn Fawcett: Well, I love, I love that.
Cause I like the walk into greatness or the walk in the greatness,
but I also like the mud thing.
Because you know, you watch dogs play in the mud and animals and
when you're a little kid, you loved jumping in the mud puddles.
So it can be good mud.
It can be fun and squishy and fun and find that childhood joy.
And, you know, one of the things I did, especially because it was COVID
when I moved here and we couldn't, you know, we just stayed in our little,
my daughter and her kid, you know, we were all in this quarantine bubble.
I don't live with them, but, you know, we were the only
people who, we didn't talk to,
we didn't see anybody else, but, or we didn't go anywhere.
But it was interesting because it gave me the time to make a, start making a list
of, it's like, Well, what am I really wanting in a relationship, you know?
And you could backtrack, it's like, Well, what didn't I get?
You know, it's like, I already knew what I didn't get out of the last relationship.
And it's like, you know, one of them was clearly like, well, I want
somebody who can, and I'm perfectly willing to do the same for them.
I want somebody who can tell me why they like me, you know, why they want
to be with me for all these years.
And my ex is like, Well, I, you know, guys don't do that.
I go, Sure they do.
No, no guys just, if they're still with you, they like you.
It's like, well, that's a lame excuse.
So he wouldn't tell me.
And it's like, I was always telling him things that I liked about
him, but he would never tell me.
And he just thought guys couldn't do that or didn't, didn't do that.
It's like, well, they better start.
You know, it's like, that's terrible.
And
yeah, that is.
That's like, but I,I so, you know, I have this like at least a page, page and a
half, maybe, list of, they're not all deal breakers, you know, some could be a little
negotiable, but the things that I want.
And I want to be on, in sync on many, many of the, most of these things.
And, um, you know, I've dated, well, or, or chatted with several
people on these dating apps.
It's like, well, okay, that list is totally unreasonable.
Cause they ask, you know, you ask each other, Well, what are you looking for?
And it's like, Well, here's my list.
And even if I didn't share the whole list, like, Oh, that's unreasonable.
It's like, well, okay, then we're not a good fit if you think right off
the bat that none of that could work.
And you know, it's like, well, that could be reasonable, but then, you
know, we, other people, it's like, well, that sounds reasonable, but you know,
then you find you're not a good fit.
But, um, but you should be able to at least be willing to share that.
And so, and also it's like, I keep teasing everybody, I'm a Leo.
I'm a very strong Leo and I'm really letting that strong
Leo come out these days.
Not that I want to trample over anybody, but I mean, obviously
I like to speak and chat.
So this is really helpful, I love, I love this.
And, um, but I've let the Leo out of the cage.
So now I am standing up for myself and I'm being very transparent.
I go, Here's who I am.
You know, I'm not a Christian, I am a witch.
I like this, this, this, this, and this.
And where do we, you know, where do we drive on those points.
And you know, it's like, I really don't want to go camping in a tent
anymore, especially at my age.
And, you know, if you, if that's all you want to do, it's
like, that's not going to work.
So, but I'm just very transparent.
I don't, you know, I love the outdoors.
I just don't want to be in a tent and, you know, the, a RV is fine, a hotel
by the lake sounds really good to me.
But, and if you're a fisherman, that's great.
But I'll sit on the bank and watch you fish and read my book or knit
and say, and cheer you on, but you know, that's, that's not going to be,
I'm not necessarily going to want to date that person first because they've
got this giant fish they've gotten and they show it on their dating app.
But I, I've learned that it's important for me to be very transparent.
So, you know, it was difficult to stand up for myself with my
ex and I'm finding that people appreciate it and then you, you find
that you're not a good fit a lot sooner.
But, cause he would look, I would even tell him, like the last time we
saw each other in person, like, You know, I'm a really amazing person.
And he would roll his eyes, his eyes glazed over.
It's like, after twenty-five years, how could you not even agree with me?
Of course we had been fighting by then.
But it's like, you know, it's like, you need to tell your
partner that they're amazing.
And maybe not every day, because maybe not every day they're,
you, feel amazing to you.
But it's like, you know, I want somebody who I can look at them and just shine
and see that, oh, I am so glad I'm with you today, even with all our bad hair.
But it's like, I just, I want that.
And I think I can have it and I think we all can have it and we can deserve it,
but you know, we have to do the work.
So, and you have to communicate a lot before you plunge in.
Ed Watters: Yeah, that, that is all true.
No, no, that, that is all true.
And, you know, the, the bottom line is your, your spouse, your
partner, you should cherish them.
Time here is short and by time you want to squabble it away,
you could have enjoyed so much.
So your transparency and being upfront about it, that is the secret to a
happy marriage, a happy relationship.
Get it out and say it right up front and don't feel bad about saying it because
that's your need, that's your want.
And as a partnership, you need to weave that into your
synergy and it's very important.
So, you know, it's very interesting, my number one top episode of the year is
covering dating over the age of forty.
And this is a, it's incredible, but there's a struggle out there.
And, you know, people are just finally figuring out, be transparent, be
open and know who and what you want, and that is the key to everything.
Don't be shy because they might not like you if you say this.
I don't care.
You know, I, I, if you don't like me because I say this, well, are
you that petty that you can't come back with a rational conversation
to sort out why I feel this way?
Because I'll change my mind as long as we can have a rational
conversation and you know what your pinpoints or your concerns are.
Because that, that is conversation and that is the key to a healthy
relationship, good conversation.
JoAnn Fawcett: You're right.
And it's like, to me, and I say it right there on my dating app and or profile,
it's like honesty is like crucial to me.
And because I spent twenty-five years with somebody who lied the whole time
about many, many, many, many things.
And, and then I had, this guy said hello and he seemed, you know, we, oh, we
have a nice connection, this is good.
So we set up a date, we had a lovely date.
You know, we had a meal then we went for a hike because we both like to walk.
And then, you know, a couple, so that's, this is a great date.
And well, do you want to see each other next weekend?
Sure.
And then, you know, I text him a little bit during the day, say,
Hope you're having a nice day.
And then, um, well, something's bothering me.
I go, and, and, okay, I'm going to be seventy.
He said on his profile that he was fifty-one.
Now I don't care if you're younger than me.
And, but then a couple of days later, it's like, Well, you
know, I'm really only forty-four.
Okay.
So now you're younger than my daughter and you lied.
And that just like, you know?
Probably if, if you had told me you were forty-four, but see, it
was an over fifty dating site.
It's like, and I've seen other people do that.
I have on my profile, I'm fifty-one, but I'm really only forty-four.
And it's like, as long as you didn't lie to me, I would probably say, Thank you,
but no, thank you.
I really don't want to date anybody younger than my daughter.
You know, that's, that's just probably kind of my line, you know?
And I don't want her, not that I was looking for a stepdad, but I don't want
her stepdad to be younger than her.
You know, that's just, you know, not gonna work for me.
And so it's like, You know, you just ruined it right there.
Well, I was really attracted to you.
It's like, but you lied right out the gate.
So it's like, you know, bye.
There obviously will not be a second date.
That is so important to me.
And it's like, if you, if you don't look like your picture and you've
been faking me and, you know, you, you probably, I don't know who was your
guest on that episode, but you know, there's so many fakers and scammers.
And it's like, If you look like this, you know, upstanding white businessman,
when we have a conversation, don't sound like that's not who you are.
Cause I can tell in the voice that that's not who you are.
You know, I'm not a racist or anything, but I can tell that's not who you are.
And that's happened twice.
And it's like, there's so many weird things and Oh, let's
go over to this other app.
I go, Yeah, no.
Uh, you know, it's just, it's, it's a minefield.
It's a minefield.
So you have to be very careful.
Ed Watters: You know, it's, it's very interesting because what she said was
if you did not meet within like the first week, there's a game being played.
And you know that, that's very interesting to me because I'm old school, you know, I,
I want to know who I'm face to face with.
I want to meet you, uh, you know, I don't want to have tea on, uh, video chat.
I want to actually know who you are.
Let's get together and let's have coffee.
Nothing, you know, just let's see who each other are.
That way, you know, because a lot of the times we see this much of each
other and a lot of the attraction is that appealing physique, or
whatever might attract the individual.
And if they can't fully engulf, that actually tends to put a damper
on things for individuals, even psychologically, because, you know,
we're so used to being face to face.
And with the advent of the computer and the internet now, so often we're
like this instead of having that physical interaction to meet and greet.
JoAnn Fawcett: Yeah, I've had several coffee dates that didn't go anywhere.
And I dated one guy for a month and realized, okay, that's not going to work.
And, you know, I dated another guy a couple of times and, you know, we
kind of, it was mutual, we figured, you know, it wasn't going to work.
And, um, but then I was like, in the same week, I was just texting or dating
app chatting with a couple of guys.
It's like, Well, do you want to get on a phone call?
You know, we've chatted for several days now by message, do
you want to have a phone call?
Nobody would say sure.
And it's like, and then one's going, Well, hi hon.
Or hi babe.
It's like, yeah, yeah, Honey bear.
It's like you don't get to call me that until I've met
you and we're actually dating.
And it's like, and the other guy did the same thing.
It's like, Don't call me that kind of stuff unless we've actually
met and we have gone on a date or two and we like each other.
It's like, You, you know, you don't, you don't get to call me
honey and babe and, um, yeah, no.
And, and the other, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, and the one guy again, I caught
him kind of in a lie or a weirdness.
It's like Well, I've got to go on this business trip.
I go, Do you want to get together for a date before you go?
No, let's just wait till I get back.
It's like, Okay.
And I've got to take my kids to stay with my grandma, or their
mom, their grandma in Idaho.
It's like,Okay.
And he made it sound like, and I'm going to stay there and then go
to Seattle for my business trip.
But then it's like that day came and it's Well, I'm settled in my hotel.
I go, I thought you were spending the weekend in Idaho.
Why?
How'd you get that?
I go, Cause this is what you told me on Wednesday.
Do you, should I look back at the message?
I keep all the dating app messages until I delete you.
You know, it's like,
and I go, And besides, you know, it's like, this isn't going to work.
You've got little kids, I'm almost seventy.
I don't want to raise somebody's little kids, you know?
And it's like, Well, we're not dating the kids.
I go, Yeah, but I don't want to raise them either.
So it was like, Forget it.
We're not going to make it to our first date, just forget it.
And, but it's like, Don't, don't tell me stupid stories.
It's like, I'm too old for that stuff.
And even if it, twenty years ago, I would have been too old for that stuff.
So, you know?
Ed Watters: You know, that, that is all valuable information.
I want to segue into your books.
Uh, the first book, Midlife Magic.
Tell us about it and why did you write it?
JoAnn Fawcett: I wrote, the first half of it is about, the first
six, well, there's a chapter on my childhood to lay some context.
And then it was like kind of why I believed in getting married, in general.
And I've said that already on here.
But, and then it goes, each, each husband gets a chapter and I was
married to husband seven at the time and we were getting along.
So he got a couple of chapters like, you know, how we met, you know, what
it was like to be married to somebody in prison, and, and how he really
introduced me to all these cool things that I totally embrace now.
So it was about, you know, the marriages and what I learned
and why they went haywire.
And what I learned from each of those.
And then meeting him, because I thought, Okay, he's, and I had him on a pedestal,
I'll tell you, and I just thought, Okay, this is going to last forever.
Until all of a sudden I'm realizing he's never going to get out, I'm
going to be working till I drop dead at the computer supporting him.
So it's like, you know, this is terrible.
But, um, and, but I do, but I, so I changed my life in my forties, because
that's when we met, my early forties.
And, you know, I left the church and I started learning
about all these other things.
It's like, Oh, this magic stuff, this is really cool.
And fairies are really cool.
And I'd, I'd had paranormal experiences before I ever met him because I,
I used to be married to a funeral director and so I could sense the
spirits there when I would go to the funerals he was, um, in charge of.
And, um, and I've had many paranormal experiences with and without psychics.
But, um, and now I work for the channeling medium every couple weeks and I talk
to dead people and it's fabulous.
And, you know, they're, they're going to help me, they're, they're, they're
giving me information for my next book.
But, um, so it's like how I changed my life and embraced all these cool things.
And how, you know, it's like I ended basically with, I don't know where
my life's going to go from here, but I know it's on this cool path.
And I also talk about my intuition and how I protect myself.
And my connection with animals and just having these really
strong energetic connection with animals and nature in general.
But I mean, I used to have deer come on our property all the time.
Because I mean, it's kind of, it's on a hillside, so a lot of
open space, but the deer would always come and have their babies.
And I'll share this story.
It's like, um, and I think I still lived there, but one, this one
morning I had to go to the store early because I'd run out of cat food.
Shame on me, I'm a cat mama and I ran out of cat food and the cats were screaming.
And so I walked down the driveway and usually there's one or two
mama deer with their babies.
Well, there were like five at least.
And they, you know, ran down, ran out from behind the back of the house and ran
down the hill and over to the next hill.
And it's like, Well, this is really cool.
And then all of a sudden, all these bucks, it's like, Oh my
gosh, I have a whole herd here.
And five of them just stood on my hill grazing a little bit.
And one of the really young ones that, you know, the grandpa stood at the
top of the hill and this young one came right down almost to the top of
the, where the retaining wall was.
And we just had this connection like, I'm talking to you.
Yes, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it was like, he was so, we were having this conversation, it was fabulous.
And another time, and it might've been, I'd already left the house, but I, you
know, went to the house cause I had to keep working on it and purging stuff.
But, um, this mama dear, you know, we were just within feet of each other and she
was like up on the level where the garden was and this vortex just and it's like we
had this soul connection, this deer and I.
It was like, just so amazing.
So that's, that's my life.
And then, you know, again, I was married to number seven.
Well, we were married a little over twenty years, but we courted for five years.
So we were together twenty-five years.
So the second book is, you know, once I moved here, um, and started,
and talked to my other book editor.
It's like, cause her husband was a narcissist,
she goes, You should write a book about that.
And I'm going, Yeah, no, that's a sticky, icky topic.
But I decided, no, I really need to, because it's, it's an important topic.
And once I got into therapy and realized that Oh, a lot of people
are experiencing the same thing I am.
And I didn't really know that until I started promoting the book.
It's like, there are so many people who are dealing with
narcissists in their lives.
So by the time I left, again, he's in prison.
And since I, you know, live Oregon to California, it was a 1, 000
dollars every time I wanted to go back down there and visit him.
And because we didn't say divorce until I'd already been gone
for like a couple years or so.
We were trying, you know, we'd go up and down trying to make it work.
So I have three years of letters of trying to go up and down and
then he would just tirade me.
And it's like, eew, and that was, you know, he might've been, might
as well have been screaming at me.
So I have three years worth of nasty
excerpts from letters just showing example after example of what a narcissist says.
This just vile crap comes out of their mouth.
And, and the, the, their logic is just like, Well, you started
your business in my house.
Because the house in California belonged to him, he inherited it.
It wasn't community property because he inherited it before I got married to him.
But it's like, You started your business in my house and then
turned your back on my needs.
It's like, Well, that business paid for all our bills and paid for all the
repairs on your house for twenty years.
So, you know, it's like, What, what's, what's your problem?
You know, it's like, And how dare you want to get paid back for any of that?
I go, Well, yeah, cause I can't retire unless you pay me back some of that money.
You know, You, you, you expected me to just sit around hoping you'd
get out of prison and you, you know, you, you lied to me about
having money stashed away somewhere.
And it's like, I never saw it.
I saw one, one payment of 500 dollars to help me pay for a hole in the roof where
the raccoons, they just keep tearing up the, the, the shingles on the roof.
It's like, and there was another one a few weeks ago.
It's like, Oh, look, the raccoons are back.
But, um, so just all this weird logic.
And again, like the thing about, Well, I, men don't, I don't
have to tell you how I feel.
It's like, Well, sure you do cause that's important to me.
And I, you know, I tell you how I feel, whether you like it or not.
But, um, just weird stuff.
And, and it, you know, that I go through, how I was in therapy and then
the major issues that we went through just as a couple anyway, and how, how
easy it was to get a divorce in Oregon.
Thank you very much, a lot easier than California.
And, um, it doesn't take as long as long as everybody's in agreement.
And then also, you know, again, we've been untangling still for three years.
And the money piece is hopefully finally going to get resolved,
but it's taking forever.
And, you know, the book is already out and I put a little caveat in there.
Okay, I think we're on the road to getting that resolved, but, you know, stay tuned.
But so, and it also has a chapter on, you know, how I have, I am thriving
and, and what I do for my self care and just all these steps, you know, that
I've done to help heal myself and work.
And, you know, so, kind of suggestions on, well, here's, you know, you
could try these kinds of things.
And also it's like, you know, if your spouse is hitting you, get the
heck out of there and call the cops.
You know, just, I have some tips in there.
But set the boundaries, like you said, and stand up for yourself
and speak up for yourself.
And they may not like it, but it's important for yourself.
And, you know, there's just things you need to do, whether it's a
narcissistic relationship or just toxic.
Because you need to be able to support yourself or find the
resources in your community, you know, cause there's help out there.
Um, thankfully I've always, I've had education, so I've been able to
stay employed and, you know, I've had my own business for a long time.
And, you know, there's just things you need to do to take care of yourself.
But then I've also discovered this way broader community of support, especially
in the narcissistic abuse arena.
So, so that's what the second book is about.
You know, it takes you through the journey.
So maybe yours, nobody's journey is exactly the same, but I think we've each
experienced enough of the same things in that, that you can, people can resonate.
And even, you know, as I'm promoting it, I'm saying, Well, you know,
maybe, you know, somebody who's going through that, you know?
Maybe buy them the book, you know, it's like, for my birthday,
buy them the book, you know?
Because maybe your friend needs it.
Maybe you don't, but maybe your friend needs that.
And they don't even know that's an, an option, you know?
So it's, it's, it's my, my way of, yes, I would love to sell copies,
but I mean, it's one of my ways, the beginning of like how I can help people,
you know, recognize what narcissism is and know that they can get help.
And, and there's hope and that there's a ton of people out here who want to support
them because it's, it's a crazy ride.
I, you know, and the book about, you know, sounds like it is a
roller coaster because, you know, one minute you're getting along
and the next minute you're not.
And it's like, Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Ed Watters: So, uh, leading with that, do we expect a trilogy then?
JoAnn Fawcett: There is a trilogy, yes.
And what it is, is my dear friend who said that my writing's really
good, who also knows the ex, bless his heart, he's my best friend.
Um, you know, he said, You should write your third book
about how you're really okay.
And the way that's coming about is because I, and I said I talk to dead
people, but a couple of years ago or so, I had a psychic reading and she said,
Your ancestors want you to write a book.
They have messages that they want to get out, and they want you to be their voice.
So, part of it, part of my healing, because I do talk to my ancestors
regularly, and other people, but, um, and so to help break the patterns
that, I apparently inherited several of the patterns from my, um, mom's line.
I don't know about all the lines.
But, so I'm talking to my mom and several of my grandmas about, you know,
What was your life like growing up?
Because they don't, they never talked about their family history.
So that part is just, you know, family history, but also it's like, And what
was it like to be a woman in your time?
Because now we're going way back into the 1800s.
And it's like, Were you allowed to stand up and use your voice?
And my great grandmother the other day said, Well, that was a well kept secret.
It's like, oh crap, this, this isn't, and they have things to say because
the women in my family are strong and we're all very powerful, but we
weren't always able to be powerful.
And I have granddaughters and, you know, now we have a powerful
woman running for president.
And it's just, you know, regardless of what your politics are, women
need to be able to stand up for themselves and just speak their truth.
And so, you know, that is kind of a theme in my family that
always hasn't been an option.
And even, I've talked to a great grandmother on a different line who
was a witch in Germany back in the 1800s or, you know, it's like, you
know, and everybody else was Lutheran.
It's like, Yeah, we had to kind of hide that.
But, so these old ancient ways have passed down.
So I'm learning about what magical ways have been passed down through
my families, but also combining that with, you know, really feeling
empowered to be our best self.
So that is going to be this crowning, and I'm so, I'm really, I mean, yes,
I'm still promoting, you know, the new, the book that just came out.
But I'm really excited because like, this has become obviously very important to me.
And, you know, and I'm, I'm being accepted by all kinds of people
who think it's really okay for me to be this powerful woman.
Because, again, I'm not trying to trample and be aggressive.
And, you know, I dated for a little, this one guy I dated, he was a lovely
guy, but, um, you know, Well, I'm a Leo.
Oh, it's like every Leo I've dated has been very aggressive.
I go, Well, I'm not aggressive, I'm chatty.
But I'm not, you know, I can, you know, I use my hands all the time,
but I think that's from a past life.
But, um, but I can be strong and, and that's okay.
And I don't want the man in my life to be afraid of that.
I want us to be seen as equals.
And, you know, that's the other thing my ex could not do.
It's like, you know, We, I want to be equal partners.
That freaked, he just couldn't even fathom, you know, he saw women as pets.
So, you know, I don't want to be your kitty cat, I want to be your partner.
Ed Watters: Right.
Well, with that, you know, every human being, man, woman,
child, you know, we're all life.
And as far as that goes, that goes for any life on this planet.
It's, it's something to be treasured and valued.
It doesn't matter if you're black, white, green, you know, it's
really about respecting life.
And that's, empowering women is a big thing.
You know, my, my wife went through sexual abuse and, you know, sorting through all
of this in a relationship is very hard.
And if a woman does not have the right to express herself, now, now
you have to express yourself in the right mannerisms to get any
quality of, uh, uh, any quality back.
So it's really about finding out how to communicate with your partner.
You're always going to have disagreements.
A hundred percent, I'm going to tell you, I guarantee it.
And, and knowing how to be able to come to your partner and
say, Hey, we have a problem.
Can we sit down and discuss this?
That is golden.
When I found that in my relationship, I will fight tooth
and nail to empower my wife.
Because her voice has learned to be very strong, and she is the wisest woman that
I know, and she is caring and loving.
And all that took to understand that is to observe the relationship
in an internal light, look in.
Because I'm telling you, I was a narcissist.
And if you're unwilling to look at yourself and be critical
about who and what you were, you're never going to change.
And you're always going to be that thing, because that's what it is, a thing.
It's not a human being.
So, we really have to demand strength in our relationship.
Like we talked about earlier, it's about that truth and the strength.
Build it in your foundation early, the earlier the better.
JoAnn Fawcett: Exactly.
So you, you overcame that personality trait?
Ed Watters: I'm still overcoming it.
It, it, you know, it,
yes, well, you know, it's just like a drug addiction.
You know, we all carry addictive personalities.
We all have narcissistic tendencies.
So it's really important to know yourself, we talked about that.
And once you know yourself, then you can have empathy towards somebody else because
you know what a jerk you really are.
And, and really, that's the magic of being truthful and open up front, you know?
And if you can find that, it's a great feeling.
Go ahead.
JoAnn Fawcett: That's what I was going to say, you know?
And one thing that, um,
I hear, you know, I, I hear, I, I'm around my, my teen grandchildren sometimes.
And, and it's like, listen to the way they talk to their parent, their mother.
And it's like, That's your mom.
How dare you talk to her like that.
And you know, what I want to say is, and they don't see any problem with that.
Well, we're just saying how we feel.
I go, But there's a way to, it's like, But you know, it's like I
want to say, Here read my new book.
How, I don't call him grandpa Mark anymore, but it's like, Read what
my ex, how he would talk to me.
It's like, to me, that is how you sound to your mother.
And, you know, my daughter, it's like, my daughter acknowledges, like, I would have
never been allowed to say that to you.
I go, Heck no.
And, you know, I wasn't allowed to talk to my parents like that.
But my therapist said something very interesting.
She goes, All these mothers are coming to me and saying, That's
how all their children are talking.
I go, Well, that's disgusting.
It's like, How, you know, not disgusting on the parents, I mean, yes, parents need
to try and nip that in the bud, but you know, your kids are going to be, you know,
and, and yes, we, we could excuse them for being teenagers, but that's no excuse.
It's like, if you're going to just show up that way, but then you're nice at
school to your teachers and your friends,
like, how are you going to show up in a job or to your future partner?
If you're, if you think it's okay to talk that way now, because I, I've
tried to tell them, you know, it's like, your family is what you have and
your friends are going to come and go.
But you're, you're, hopefully your family's going to stick by you forever.
And why are you talking to them like that?
And it just, it drives me nuts.
But, um, you know, I hate it.
And I'm sorry to hear that so many parents are hearing that
same stuff from their children.
And I don't think it's just Portland based.
But I'll, but you know, it's like, on a positive note, um, I have this
lovely quote, which I always forget to
bring to any of these things.
But a non human, an alien senator at a conference once gave this wonderful
speech at this treaty conference.
And part of this speech, which I love to share, it's like, he talks about
how infinite the universe is and how everything, you know, the, the
universe is abundant and everything is
wonderful and unique and incredible.
Whether you have eyes or ears, you look totally different, or you can't share the
same language, but it's like so moving.
And it's like, here's this, and I call them people, they look like dinosaurs.
But here's this person who has this wonderful perspective on the
beauty that this universe provides.
Among things that, there are so many things that don't look like us, you know?
And it's, just to know that there's spiritual beings and educated and
intellectual beings that don't, you know, cause, you know, you know, humans
are okay, cool, but, you know, we're maybe, but we're different from everybody
else and we're younger than they are.
But it's like this, it just reminds us that there's so much cool, wonderful
energy and possibilities, you know, for connection and just acceptance
of other humans and of other non humans.
And it's like, it's just, it's like, you know, you look in space.
And my nephew does some incredible astronomy photography and it's like,
you know, if you look out there, there's probably somebody that lives
out there and they don't look like you.
So yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing what I've learned.
But I will, um, say, because we might be almost out of time anyway, But
I have a website, joannfawcett.com.
I'm on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
My email is joann@joannfawcett.com if anybody wants to chat.
Um, I'm happy to help and support you in however I can.
Even just a listening ear, I am here for you.
And I'm really happy to be on this show today.
Ed Watters: Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you may be.