Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate.
Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn.
We are all Dead America, we can all learn something.
To learn, we must challenge what we already understand.
The way we do that is through conversation.
Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best
conversations happen with ourselves.
Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something new right now.
Today, we are speaking with Kayla Crane.
She is a licensed marriage family therapist, she is also the
owner of South Denver Therapy.
Kayla, could you please introduce yourself?
Let people know just a little more about you, please.
Kayla Crane: Hi.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Uh, I am, like you said, a licensed marriage and family therapist.
I specialize in couples and relationships along
with trauma.
I'm trained in a specific trauma modality known as EMDR and I use that with
individuals and sometimes with couples.
Ed Watters: I really want to dive deep into what you
think about the divorce rate.
And what do you think is the leading cause of this high rate of divorce in couples?
Kayla Crane: Yeah.
I mean, it is, uh, it is a high rate these days.
It is, um, fairly common, unfortunately.
And what I see is that a lot of times, relationships can be saved, even
when people think that they can't be.
Um, but it takes finding some help and some resources.
Uh, couples therapy really can work, it can be really effective.
Um, you know, it's, communication is what people think of when,
um, they think of relationship issues, and that's a part of it.
But, um, really getting to like the underlying meaning of the conflict or what
your partner is trying to communicate.
I think that's a skill that you can learn in couples therapy,
but it doesn't come naturally.
And so I think unless you have, that you are taught to do that, then that's where
relationships, I think, fail sometimes when the partners don't have those skills
to really understand what their partner is looking for or what they're needing.
Those underlying issues that are kind of masked by the surface level fights.
Ed Watters: I like that.
You know, it takes time to build a relationship.
When we jump into a relationship, we don't have an owner's manual, we're
going off of hearsay and what everybody else tells us and what we think.
And when we get into it, it's nothing like that at all.
And it's shocking and alarming to a lot of people.
So, I find that there's always patterns or cycles to arguments
that lead to separation.
What's your take on that?
Do you actually find patterns and cycles repeating themselves over and over?
Kayla Crane: Oh, absolutely.
Every couple has a cycle or a dance as people sometimes call it, um, and that's
kind of their communication pattern.
And so that's where the communication piece is important, is to be
able to work with those cycles.
But, um, so for example, one of the most common cycles that we see is called
the pursuer/withdrawer, or sometimes people say distancer, um, dynamic.
And so this is the dynamic in my, my marriage, I'm the pursuer
and my husband's the distancer.
So when there's conflict, I pursue.
I want to talk about it, I want to fix it right then.
Um, it gives me anxiety not having, not repairing it.
And he needs some time and space so he distances.
But that causes more anxiety on my end so I tend to pursue more, and
that causes him to distance more and it's like a round and round.
Um, so that one's really common, and there's, you know,
easy tools to work on that.
But if, if partners don't recognize that cycle, then, um, they never, develop
the skill to interrupt the cycle, right?
So that the awareness is the first piece.
Um, because a lot of people just think this is just how it is,
this is how we've always operated.
And so being able to identify this is our cycle, this is something
that we need to address and we need to be able to interrupt.
And then the second step, obviously, is, um, gaining tools to be
able to interrupt that cycle.
Ed Watters: I like that a lot.
You really do need to disrupt that cycle.
Uh, I lived for, heck, at least thirty-five years with that repetitive
cycle and trying to ignore it.
And that's really insane to think about.
But once you figure out, yes, this is a cycle, when you slow your mind down out
of the argument phase and you identify, Wow, we've been here so many times before.
Why is this happening?
Then we can actually start saying, Hey, wait, can we not do this again?
And I really think that is the start, identifying those cycles, those patterns.
And then disrupting them like you just said.
It's very interesting.
Kayla Crane: Yeah.
Um, it, if you, um, if you don't develop that ability to interrupt the cycle,
both partners usually just end up, you know, kind of giving up a little bit.
And, um, and, and they don't often come back to, What's the problem?
What are we trying to solve here?
The focus kind of shifts to that, that cycle, right?
And then, um, both partners kind of give up or whatever it is, but they
don't come back to the, the conflict.
And so then the next time there's a conflict, that last
one kind of gets piled on there.
And then I hear that a lot, people say, Every time we fight,
all the past issues come back.
Well, that's because they weren't ever addressed.
Ed Watters: Yes, that's key.
I like that a lot.
You know, coming from a family of divorce, my, everyone in my family got divorced.
Out of eight siblings, I'm the only one that has made it to the level
I have achieved in my relationship.
And that has not been easy because all of the baggage that I packed
with me from all of the experiences I've witnessed from my parents, my
aunts, my uncles, my own siblings.
And it's really about taking that maturity step and saying, It's up
to me to grow a relationship to my standards, not somebody else's standards.
And that's that baggage that we often pack, we're, we're
like expected to be this way.
I don't want to be a divorced person and it doesn't appeal to me.
So really stepping up and taking the responsibility is key.
And it's very hard to do when you come from a background of broken relationships.
Kayla Crane: Right.
And that's a really good point is that we all have baggage.
We all have, every single person has childhood trauma, um, it's, there's
just kind of no way around it.
And, um, that part is so important because all, almost all of our maladaptive
behaviors go back to childhood.
And so that's where I say like communication's important.
But that's how you address those underlying causes and the underlying
meanings is taking a look back to that, to your childhood and where
you develop these, um, today, they're maladaptive behaviors.
When we were children, we developed them to protect ourselves.
Um, and they were actually adaptive then, however, now we're adults,
we have resources that we didn't have as children and we can, um,
respond, you know, in a healthier way.
So for example, if somebody has, um, a parent that was scary, maybe they have it,
maybe as a child, they would go and kind of withdraw.
They would go to their room and be quiet or shut down.
And so as an adult, they probably do the same thing.
And so it makes sense as a child, why a child would do that.
However, an adult has more communication tools, they can protect themselves.
They've got all different kinds of resources where they don't necessarily
need to withdraw and shut down.
But again, without that recognition that I'm using a maladaptive behavior
here, um, you can't stop it, right?
Because a lot of people just go along thinking, This is just how I am.
This is just what I do.
Um, but when we do that awareness, we do, I do a lot of like, um, inner
child work, stuff like that to learn
where this came from, how it originated, what purpose did it serve as a child?
Because that's important.
And to do that work in the presence of their partner so they can gain
some empathy and understanding.
And, Oh, it's not just what I'm, you know, it's not me,
this is kind of their own thing.
This is how they operate.
And now how can we work as a team to, you know, change that behavior to make,
to develop a more, a healthier response.
And it takes both parties to do that because if we're asking somebody to do
something that doesn't feel, like, right, it feels different than what they've
known their entire life, they need to feel safe with their partner, safe
enough to be able to take that risk and not use that protective coping skill.
Ed Watters: I like that a lot.
You just highlighted something key here is, you need to work on this as a couple.
I see so many times where there's women groups and men's groups to separate,
to work on these issues and problems.
But there's very few couples groups that actually come together and
talk about these hard problems.
And how did you solve this?
Or what, what do you think about my issue, and could you give me some highlights?
I think this is important to not only work as a group with couples, but as a couple.
Everyday, we're working as a couple on our relationship now.
And when we were trying to walk it alone and, uh, especially us men, uh,
I don't want to go seek counseling.
But really, it's the best thing to get you set on the right path
of success in your relationship.
And when I learned that and the bounty of good information that I received
when I broke my own self down and let my barriers be opened to allow others
to kind of pick at these things and rationalize, it really helped a lot.
So back to the original point here, there is always this work that needs
to be done and it's as a couple.
Why do we not see more couples groups helping couples with
these couples problems?
Kayla Crane: I mean, that's a really good question and I don't really know.
I do know, um, more common, um, modalities, couples therapy modalities,
um, mostly encourage like trauma work to be done individually.
The way I work, um, the way I was trained is that we do the trauma work
in the presence of both partners.
Um, so because again, this all contributes to their behaviors in the relationship.
And so again, like to first develop that sense of understanding
and empathy from their partner.
Um, so they can, Oh, this makes sense.
This, you know, they can kind of put it together and, um, and
then so they can collaborate.
How can we make this work together?
What do you need when this happens?
When you get triggered, you know, um, work as a team to, when you see
your partner is, you know, using these maladaptive, um, behaviors from
childhood, help them recognize that.
And of course, it's not as simple as just telling them, you know, there needs to
be some kind, we need to develop what will work best for you in that moment.
Um, and so that's why I think it's really important for both parties
to, to be, to witness that work.
Um, of course, there needs to be this, like, the, um, the establishment of,
it feel, like safety for both parties.
Especially the partner going through their trauma, they need to feel
comfortable and safe with their partner in order to be able to do that work.
Um, but if, if they are, then I highly recommend that they do that work together.
Um, because again, it all, it all shows up in the relationship.
And so it helps so much for the partner to understand and then be part of that
collaboration on how to best manage the, you know, what happens in, in
those times of conflict or triggers.
Ed Watters: Yeah, I think it's major if, if we separate ourselves in, uh, separate
areas, there's already a separation and we're working on separation.
Where, uh, No, we have a problem.
We've already agreed.
Okay, we'll seek counseling.
Let's do this together.
And that's tough to do at times.
I, I, I don't know.
So when people get mad, they separate.
And, and I, I really think that's embedded in our society now where we
get mad and then we don't want to have any communication, we break off ties.
And I think this is destructive in so many ways, because communication
is the core of all relationship, business, personal, or whatever.
It's a social arrangement that needs to happen.
What's your thoughts on that?
Kayla Crane: I think you're right.
I think what happens is when people do that, when they, I think it's just, um,
they feel hopeless or they don't know what to do and they kind of feel stuck.
Um, Where do we go from here?
We're not making progress, it's just, you know, we're both getting frustrated.
And so just kind of give up.
I don't even want to deal with this because we're not taught this in school.
Like you said, there's no instruction manual.
A lot of us, it wasn't modeled to us by our parents how to
communicate in a healthy way.
It really requires getting educated and learning how to do it.
Um, and that's where, like I said, couples therapy can be so helpful.
Also, you can learn it yourself.
You can, you know, read books, um, watch podcasts, or watch, uh, TED
talks, watch all these, you know, there's a lot of options, but it
just doesn't often come naturally.
And so you've, and so it gets really frustrating and discouraging when you get
stuck, and no one really knows what to do.
You keep going back to all you know how to communicate and so does
the person you're communicating with, and you just get stuck.
And I think at some point, one or both, just, Okay, we don't
even know what to do from here.
So let's just, let's just talk about something else or not talk or whatever
it is, but not actually repair, right?
Ed Watters: Yes.
You know, many years ago, back in the early eighties, my wife and I, we
sought counseling for the first time.
And we ran across a counselor, a counselor that introduced us to Gary
Smalley, and he introduced us to the idea that men and women are different.
And we think different, we act different.
And with that going forward, building a relationship, you've got to realize when
you come in together, you're different.
Your, your habits are different, you are going to annoy each other.
And that first part of the relationship, getting to know each other's
habits and all of that can be very, very tender, if you will, because
nobody wants to offend each other.
And I feel that you should offend each other early and get it out of the way.
I think you should know who you're living with.
You don't like my toothbrush this way, I want to know that.
So we can work together to alter our patterns to come together.
And I think a lot of us, we have these different ideas of what we
want our relationship to be like.
And we don't really take in account what our partner wants, and that
can be very destructive in itself.
And if we don't know who our partner is, it's going to be very hard to
mold together that relationship.
So what's your thought about getting dirty right off the bat and getting to know
people and being honest and open and true?
Kayla Crane: I think that's, that's a good point.
Um, to be able to, you know, um, especially if you're going to move
in with your partner or, you know, develop a, um, a, uh, serious
relationship, it is important.
And at the beginning, you know, the honeymoon phase, that's a real
thing and so everything seems great.
See, you know, um, nothing they do bothers you.
And, uh, that's just not reality, that's not sustainable.
Um, I mean, biologically speaking, that's just not sustainable.
You're, you're not developing those chemicals like you do in the beginning.
Um, and so, yeah, it, it's, I think, important to be aware of that, that things
are going to be easy in the beginning.
Um, and it's going to not remain that easy, it's going to actually take work.
And that doesn't mean that your relationship is in a bad place
or it's not doing as well.
Sometimes people mistake that, right?
Like, Oh, we're having some, um, disagreements or, you know, there's
something really wrong with us because it's not as pleasant as it was in
the beginning, but that's just the normal trajectory of a relationship.
Um, so I think having that, uh, kind of awareness and acceptance that it's going
to change, it's going to get harder.
And I, I have people that come in, you know, right at the beginning of
their, like that transition into a more serious relationship, um, just to be
proactive and develop the skills and the tools that they're going to need
to be successful in the relationship.
I don't often have those people, but I do sometimes.
And it really kind of sets them up for success because I always tell couples,
even after, you know, we finish our time together and hopefully, you know,
you're on a better track, things are all, you know, working out great,
you're going to hit another rough patch.
Like it's unrealistic to think that you're not going to.
And so that's kind of a, a goal of mine, when I have couples leave, is to really
make sure that they've got a lot of tools, a lot of resources, um, to set
them up for success going forward because that's just reality of a relationship.
Um, there's going to be conflict and actually, if there's not, if people
come in, um, or, you know, if I hear we actually don't fight at all, that's
usually a red flag because that means that you're, you're avoiding things, right?
Because that's not reality.
It just doesn't happen, two different human beings, there's
going to be conflict at some point.
It doesn't have to be unhealthy, it doesn't have to get mean or anything,
but there's going to be some conflict.
Um, and if there's not, that's, uh, there's a strong possibility that
it's just being avoided or ignored.
So the, the goal is to learn how to have conflict in a healthy, productive way.
Ed Watters: Yeah, I like that.
You have to be authentic.
If you're not authentic, you're not really in a true relationship and you're
going to find that out the hard way.
So I like that there are ways to help young couples get through this process
in the beginning, because I highly recommend just go and get counsel.
If you're really serious about being together, there's
a reason you feel that way.
And if you seek that counsel up front, you might keep that and be
set up for success, like you said.
I like that a lot.
What do you feel about negative self talk in a relationship?
You know, we always have this doubt and this negative side to us, and we
always want to drag that up in conflict.
What, how can we avoid negative self conflict?
Kayla Crane: So, yeah, that's a good point.
A lot of people do that.
Um, and that is, so that's, goes back to, again, it goes back to childhood.
Um, in childhood we develop, uh, like negative beliefs about ourself, right?
And that's usually where we see the negative self talk.
And so, um, if somebody's negative belief is, um,
I can't do, um, or I don't, I don't deserve love,
that's a very common negative or negative core belief.
And so if that's their core belief, um, then most of the conflict,
that's like going to be that deeper meaning is, they're going to pull
out of it, that negative core belief.
And so if my core belief is I don't believe I'm worthy of love, when
I, um, when there's conflict with my partner, that's going to be the
underlying thing that I go to is,
Oh, you're mad at me that I, um, I didn't call when I was supposed
to call you, um, that, uh, I just don't deserve your love, right?
That's what I'm, that person's going to often go to.
If somebody's core belief is I'm going to be left, right?
It's something with abandonment, then the same thing, that, um, the same, conflict.
Oh, you didn't call, I'm going to take that from that, Oh,
you're going to leave me.
If that makes sense?
So that's where the negative self talk comes in.
That's something within yourself, right?
That's not what, even though it feels like your partner's telling
you you're not worthy of love or you're going to be abandoned,
that's what you're coming up with.
And so again, that's good work that you can do in your couple's session
in the presence of both parties.
Um, so your partner can get some awareness of, Oh, this is what
they're taking from our conflict.
And we can use that once we can develop what that negative self talk is.
We can kind of collaborate on a plan of, um, going forward,
what their partner can say
to help them with that.
And so if they know that their partner is going to, their negative belief is I'm
going to be left during conflict, then we can, maybe their partner says, I'm,
I love you, I'm not going to leave you.
And I'm really mad that you didn't call or something like that.
Um, they can come up together with what would feel right to help prevent
their partner going into that place or pull them out of that place.
Ed Watters: I like that a lot.
So, resources is big.
You know, when, when we get into counseling, uh, couples, they tend to
think that, Well, I'll go there once a week and that will be the time.
No, that's a 24/7 job.
Once you step into the role of accepting counseling, that's where the work begins
then you have to put the time in.
My wife and I, now we are always setting aside time for us to learn together.
Uh, currently we're on a book, and we read a chapter each week together
and we, we have so many books lined up for our journey together.
Because we anticipate this work together and it helps pull you together and unite
you when you're actually eager to work together on bettering, not me, not her,
but us and the people we interact with.
Because a happy couple projects a happy world and, and that's
really one of our missions.
So talk to us about the work involved in overcoming a bad relationship.
Kayla Crane: Yeah, I think that's, that's a good point.
Um, when couples do come to couples therapy together, that in itself
can be, um, a strength that can be something that off of, right?
Like, um, when they feel so discouraged and they come in, it's
like, well, you're both here, right?
So you've got that, you both want the same thing.
Usually I'll ask them, you know, and usually they want to stay together.
Um, and so, Well, already you guys are working together
on a, as a team to do this.
And so I think just being at couples therapy together is step one, right?
It kind of aligns you, Hey, we've got the same goal here.
And so throughout our time together, I try to remind couples that when they
start, um, kind of assuming, not assuming good intentions from their partner.
It's like, Hey, why do you think they're here right now?
I mean, couples therapy is not fun, right?
It's not where people want to spend their time.
You're there to work to, to make things better.
And so I think that's really important for couples to keep in mind.
A lot of times when they get to me, they are in a really difficult place
and it's hard for them to see that their partner cares at all, right?
All they see is that, Oh, my partner's mad at me, they hate me,
they don't want to be around me,
they don't want to be in this relationship.
Um, so I try to really highlight that, um, Well, they're here.
They're doing the work, you're both doing the work, you're that invested.
And that's a huge piece of it, you know, both of you just
being willing to do this work.
Um, and then, yeah, like you said, it isn't just that time and session.
The time and session I use to, you know, sometimes I'll ask them
about a conflict that happened.
Um, a lot of times I will, but that's not to solve that conflict.
Um, like that's not what, that's not going to be productive, um, if every single
time they come in and they say, This is what we fought over and we spent our whole
entire time resolving that one conflict.
Um, because then they're going to need to be coming to couples therapy
for every conflict forever, right?
And so sometimes I will ask about the conflict just so we can use
that as, um, so I can have examples of where did this go wrong, right?
And then also maybe kind of like redoing it in my presence and me
guiding them through this is how, you know, it, it can work better.
Um, and then having them so they can go forward and use those
skills on their next conflict.
Because that's the, the real key, I think, with couples therapy is coming out with
those tools and resources to be able to get through conflict on their own.
Um, and so, yeah, I send homework and then, so that there
is that time to carry over.
Otherwise you're, you're with me, you know, for a short period.
And, um, sometimes, you know, the stuff, it doesn't, we've gone over so much that
it's hard to kind of keep everything top of mind, so I try to give some homework
to reinforce what we talked about, what we worked on, those tools or resources.
I think that's important.
Ed Watters: I think that's where the magic happens is in that homework.
Because that's really where you're authentic with each other
the most, and that's where your comfort zone is going to be anyway.
So that's where you have to concentrate on.
So let's segue into your resources and your services, because I looked
on your website and it's fabulous.
The resources that you offer, free resources, uh, these are
unique and very helpful to people.
Could you talk to us about your resources first, and then let's
segue into the service end of it.
Kayla Crane: Yeah.
So, um, on my website, I do have some free workbooks, um, communication workbooks,
and, um, like depression and stuff that a lot of people do struggle with.
Um, so those are free to check out, um, on my website, southdenvertherapy.com.
Like I said, couples therapy, I can do couples therapy or individual therapy,
um, throughout the state of Colorado.
Anyone who's located in Colorado.
I can also offer couples coaching, um, through any, uh, that can be
anywhere located that doesn't, isn't restricted to Colorado.
Um, I offer couples coaching intensives and, uh, like I said, I also offer,
um, the trauma work, um, in, for both couples and individuals, and I do
incorporate EMDR if, uh, appropriate.
Ed Watters: All right.
And so do you have a call to action for our listeners today?
Kayla Crane: Okay, yeah.
Yeah, I think just, um, trying to keep in mind that, like I said, um, a lot of
relationships, they're, they're savable.
You can repair your relationship, most likely, even in incredibly,
um, difficult circumstances.
You'd be surprised at how, um, how much can be repaired.
And so keeping that in mind that there are resources for, to
help you in your relationship, to help you and your partner.
Like I said, couples therapy can really work.
Um, finding a really good couples therapist can be helpful, ask
your friends for referrals.
Um, more people than you know actually do go to therapy, uh, you'd be surprised.
And, um, you know, if you also just check out some books, some reading,
um, and that, that's a really good place to get started on learning
some tools that you can take into your relationship and use those also.
Um, so I think those are a good place, a good couple places to start if
you're struggling in your relationship.
And even if you're not, like I said, even just a few, um, a few books or a few
sessions with the therapist can really, uh, help you out, give you some tools
for when you do hit those rough patches.
And again, trying to get your partner on board, um, and so you guys can do it as a
team and you can both be equally invested.
And again, keeping in mind that it's probably fixable.
Ed Watters: I like it a lot.
Kayla, it's been a delight speaking with you.
How can people reach out and how can people find you, locate
you, and interact with you?
Kayla Crane: Yeah.
Um, so I can be found on Facebook and Instagram @southdenvertherapy.
Again, my website is www.southdenvertherapy.com.
Um, and yeah, you can reach out to me, uh, through any of those.
Ed Watters: All right.
Kayla, it's fascinating how much knowledge you have about relationships.
And I want to say thank you for sharing it here today on the
Dead America Podcast with us.
Kayla Crane: Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me.
Ed Watters: Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe and join us right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.