1 00:00:05,670 --> 00:00:08,579 To overcome, you must educate. 2 00:00:09,950 --> 00:00:16,020 Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn. 3 00:00:17,370 --> 00:00:21,410 We are all Dead America, we can all learn something. 4 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,800 To learn, we must challenge what we already understand. 5 00:00:27,790 --> 00:00:31,160 The way we do that is through conversation. 6 00:00:32,610 --> 00:00:39,739 Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best 7 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,870 conversations happen with ourselves. 8 00:00:44,129 --> 00:00:51,480 Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something new right now. 9 00:00:55,705 --> 00:01:01,185 Today we're speaking with Dana S. Diaz, she's a returning guest to the podcast. 10 00:01:01,695 --> 00:01:09,205 Her new book, Choking on Shame, The Scapegoat Child in a Narcissistic Family. 11 00:01:09,654 --> 00:01:12,634 Dana, could you please introduce yourself and let people know a 12 00:01:12,634 --> 00:01:13,854 little more about you, please? 13 00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:15,420 Yeah, absolutely. 14 00:01:15,420 --> 00:01:19,630 Um, I was, as you said, a guest before with my book Gasping for 15 00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:24,420 Air, which talked about my former marriage, um, which, in which I was 16 00:01:24,430 --> 00:01:26,550 married to an abusive narcissist. 17 00:01:26,550 --> 00:01:30,850 And the abuse, living that fight or flight mode for so long actually 18 00:01:30,850 --> 00:01:35,680 made me autoimmune and gave me a lung disease, kind of reaffirming that, that 19 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,120 cliche that stress really can kill you. 20 00:01:38,450 --> 00:01:42,655 But after that book came out, a lot of people were asking, Well, we're 21 00:01:42,655 --> 00:01:46,205 meeting you, we're seeing you, we're hearing you, you know, in interviews, 22 00:01:46,475 --> 00:01:52,794 you seem like an independent minded, um, strong willed, educated 23 00:01:53,115 --> 00:01:56,935 woman, like how could you end up being in this situation where you 24 00:01:56,935 --> 00:02:01,164 were submitting to this man who clearly didn't know what he had? 25 00:02:01,175 --> 00:02:05,474 And, you know, it didn't take me but a second to say, Well, it was my childhood. 26 00:02:05,475 --> 00:02:09,374 I mean, isn't that, I mean, I hate to be cliche in that way and blame the 27 00:02:09,375 --> 00:02:13,705 parents, but the reality is, is that we are kind of hardwired by the time we're 28 00:02:13,705 --> 00:02:19,360 six or seven years old as to who we are and what our place is in the world. 29 00:02:19,390 --> 00:02:24,560 And how to relate with other people and roles and all these things that 30 00:02:24,810 --> 00:02:28,240 we absorb, even though people don't realize we're taking, we don't even 31 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,140 realize we're taking in this information. 32 00:02:30,140 --> 00:02:36,229 So, you know, we kind of went backwards writing this prequel Choking on Shame, 33 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:42,640 which goes right into my personal story of being born to a teenage 34 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:46,810 mother who didn't want me and I would argue didn't want any children. 35 00:02:47,090 --> 00:02:52,720 But then how she went on to remain emotionally detached from me, allowed 36 00:02:52,789 --> 00:02:57,609 the man she ended up marrying to abuse me, um, and how that basically 37 00:02:57,620 --> 00:02:59,859 set me up on the wrong path for life. 38 00:03:01,450 --> 00:03:05,390 Yeah, it's a riveting tale once you dive into Dana's story. 39 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:12,040 But you know, it was really kind of piquing my interest and it was one of 40 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:18,820 my highlighted questions about why you started in the middle of the story. 41 00:03:18,820 --> 00:03:22,715 Is there a reason for that or is it just by chance that you 42 00:03:22,715 --> 00:03:25,725 went back to explain forward. 43 00:03:27,805 --> 00:03:31,884 Honestly, I never meant to write more than one book. 44 00:03:32,225 --> 00:03:38,905 And when I originally set to write anything, tell my story, so to 45 00:03:38,905 --> 00:03:42,045 speak, I wrote the whole story. 46 00:03:42,354 --> 00:03:50,404 But forty some years of very complex, emotional, and psychological, and physical 47 00:03:50,655 --> 00:03:56,924 warfare basically, and, and unraveling all that so that people can really 48 00:03:56,924 --> 00:04:02,524 understand the depths of it, um, it, we just couldn't do that in one book. 49 00:04:02,524 --> 00:04:04,505 So we just put the one book out there. 50 00:04:04,505 --> 00:04:09,684 We focused on the one relationship, you know, a romantic relationship 51 00:04:09,684 --> 00:04:13,295 with a narcissist and how that obviously went very wrong. 52 00:04:13,625 --> 00:04:17,734 Um, started off bad, ended up with domestic violence even after the 53 00:04:17,734 --> 00:04:20,635 divorce, um, as we discussed last time. 54 00:04:20,995 --> 00:04:25,364 So this time, like I said, it was more in response to readers because 55 00:04:25,375 --> 00:04:28,284 a lot of people do reach out to me and I'm thankful for that. 56 00:04:28,495 --> 00:04:32,275 You know, that they read Gasping for Air and they said, I have the strength now. 57 00:04:32,284 --> 00:04:33,075 Thank you. 58 00:04:33,275 --> 00:04:36,924 You know, I'm going to leave my relationship or I just ended my 59 00:04:36,924 --> 00:04:40,324 relationship because I realized, you know, that I deserve 60 00:04:40,334 --> 00:04:41,984 better too, and all this stuff. 61 00:04:42,314 --> 00:04:44,794 But there were still those questions, people are always 62 00:04:44,815 --> 00:04:48,034 seeking to understand the reasons. 63 00:04:48,355 --> 00:04:50,075 Why did they do this to me? 64 00:04:50,095 --> 00:04:52,865 Why did I succumb to it? 65 00:04:52,875 --> 00:04:55,235 What made me vulnerable to it? 66 00:04:55,495 --> 00:05:00,944 And my answer, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a therapist and, you know, I could 67 00:05:01,015 --> 00:05:06,580 sit and give reasons to every individual person, but the best way to do anything 68 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:08,539 was just to tell my experience. 69 00:05:08,539 --> 00:05:11,990 And my experience was that I was basically primed for it. 70 00:05:11,990 --> 00:05:16,139 I was raised to think that I was nothing and that I would never be 71 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:21,070 an, I was actually told directly as a child that nobody would ever love me. 72 00:05:21,510 --> 00:05:26,360 Nobody ever wanted me, you know, it was the typical, I would never 73 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,230 be enough, that whole thing. 74 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:30,409 And it's such a pitying thing. 75 00:05:30,409 --> 00:05:36,719 But what's even sadder is that as tenacious as I was, even as a child, 76 00:05:36,719 --> 00:05:42,500 and stood up for myself, and I would, I would shout back and say, No, I'm 77 00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:47,115 good, I'm, I'm, somebody's gonna love me, you know, I would fight it, but 78 00:05:47,115 --> 00:05:53,205 I was still making it mean something about me at the end of the day. 79 00:05:53,455 --> 00:05:56,155 And it made me feel deficient. 80 00:05:56,475 --> 00:06:01,545 And I went out in the world and the first guy I found that gave me the slightest 81 00:06:01,545 --> 00:06:06,145 bit of attention, I just glommed on because I was looking for that love and 82 00:06:06,145 --> 00:06:08,075 affection that I hadn't gotten at home. 83 00:06:08,095 --> 00:06:13,785 I was that kid that didn't get hugged or soothed, you know, I was always a bother. 84 00:06:13,975 --> 00:06:18,655 If I scraped my knee, if I was crying about something, I needed 85 00:06:18,655 --> 00:06:22,585 to stop feeling anything, I wasn't allowed to have emotions, you know? 86 00:06:22,585 --> 00:06:26,874 So we tell of all this because I don't think people realize when they think about 87 00:06:26,875 --> 00:06:31,944 child abuse or any abuse, even in adult relationships, you think abuse, you think 88 00:06:31,944 --> 00:06:37,034 a woman, you know, walking around with a black eye or a kid walking around, you 89 00:06:37,034 --> 00:06:39,775 know, with being banged up and bruised. 90 00:06:40,885 --> 00:06:45,455 We don't understand that that's such a small part of abuse. 91 00:06:45,455 --> 00:06:49,855 I mean, as of last year, the Children's Alliance here in the U. S. said that 92 00:06:49,855 --> 00:06:55,485 only eighteen percent, I mean, only, it's still too much, but eighteen percent of 93 00:06:55,514 --> 00:06:58,665 child abuse cases last year were physical. 94 00:06:59,085 --> 00:07:00,435 Just 18%. 95 00:07:01,055 --> 00:07:04,395 You know, even less of a percentage were sexual. 96 00:07:04,585 --> 00:07:08,965 Thank God, because I think that's probably the worst, honestly. 97 00:07:09,395 --> 00:07:15,520 Um, but most of it, most of it deals with the psychological stuff. 98 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,030 The neglect, emotional neglect, because neglect, people think it's just, 99 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:22,000 Oh, you're not feeding your child. 100 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,120 You're not providing them. 101 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:29,905 But we all have needs and part of that is the need to belong, the need to 102 00:07:29,905 --> 00:07:33,145 feel secure, the need to feel safe. 103 00:07:33,235 --> 00:07:36,935 And yes, we need air to breathe and we need food for nourishment 104 00:07:36,945 --> 00:07:38,795 to survive and water and such. 105 00:07:39,135 --> 00:07:44,135 But there's this element that emotional neglect is huge. 106 00:07:44,325 --> 00:07:47,754 Because, I mean, look at where we are now, September is Suicide 107 00:07:47,755 --> 00:07:49,435 Awareness Month worldwide. 108 00:07:49,965 --> 00:07:51,795 Why do people kill themselves? 109 00:07:52,185 --> 00:07:57,520 Because they're lonely and they are alone with that pain of that loneliness. 110 00:07:57,750 --> 00:08:00,900 It's not because they want to die, I guarantee you. 111 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:04,400 It's not because they want to die, they just want the pain to stop. 112 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,290 But where does that pain originate? 113 00:08:06,290 --> 00:08:08,060 Where does that loneliness originate? 114 00:08:08,470 --> 00:08:09,380 In childhood. 115 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:13,640 And it's in these neglect cases that take up way too much. 116 00:08:13,649 --> 00:08:18,670 And, and, and you know, people think it's among, you know, lower income 117 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:24,530 or, you know, minority, um, you know, and ethnic groups, but it's not. 118 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:31,880 By an astronomical percentage, this is prevalent more among Caucasian people. 119 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,229 Because if you look at, you know, and I'm just going off the top of my head, 120 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:42,409 but Asian cultures, Hispanic cultures, Indian cultures, all around the world, 121 00:08:42,510 --> 00:08:43,860 people are more communal. 122 00:08:44,079 --> 00:08:48,019 You know, grandma lives in the home, maybe aunts and uncles, and cousins, 123 00:08:48,019 --> 00:08:52,539 and, and, and everybody gets raised within that community of family. 124 00:08:52,829 --> 00:08:56,670 And here in this country, you know, and forgive me, I mean, I'm white 125 00:08:56,670 --> 00:09:01,440 too, but we have this thing about independence and, you know, all this 126 00:09:01,450 --> 00:09:08,895 self and me, me, me, we lose ourselves in that because we are not connecting. 127 00:09:08,955 --> 00:09:11,695 I mean, it's a basic human need to connect. 128 00:09:11,915 --> 00:09:15,815 And when we're not getting that connection, I mean, for me, I had zero 129 00:09:15,844 --> 00:09:20,145 connection with my mother, my stepfather didn't even want to try to connect 130 00:09:20,145 --> 00:09:23,645 with me, I was alone as a little girl. 131 00:09:23,895 --> 00:09:28,365 And thank God I'm still standing here and, and I'm getting better every day. 132 00:09:28,365 --> 00:09:32,575 But I mean, it's a life, these are lifelong damaging things that you're 133 00:09:32,595 --> 00:09:36,944 constantly looking for love and it creates that codependency and these 134 00:09:36,945 --> 00:09:42,155 people pleasing habits and all this stuff that ends us up in toxic relationships 135 00:09:42,395 --> 00:09:47,015 where we're disappointed all over again, you know, for a million reasons. 136 00:09:47,035 --> 00:09:50,805 But, um, this is something that definitely needs attention. 137 00:09:50,805 --> 00:09:54,875 I think if we could make people more aware of it, then, maybe we can't change the 138 00:09:54,875 --> 00:10:00,074 world, but we can maybe change how a few people interact with their kids at home. 139 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,230 You know, like, get off your damn phone, stop scrolling through social media, 140 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:09,690 when your child comes to you, just look at them, give them your attention. 141 00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:15,820 Put the phones down at dinner, turn the TV off, talk to your kids. 142 00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:19,760 Then maybe your kids will come to you and want to talk with you. 143 00:10:20,069 --> 00:10:25,420 I mean, when was the last time, I rarely see a parent outside tossing or 144 00:10:25,420 --> 00:10:27,560 kicking a ball around with their kid. 145 00:10:27,850 --> 00:10:34,005 Like, we need to start creating that connection again and stop with the social 146 00:10:34,015 --> 00:10:36,464 stuff and stop with this electronic crap. 147 00:10:36,735 --> 00:10:40,714 Because your kid does not need to be raised by Spongebob or whoever. 148 00:10:41,005 --> 00:10:45,145 Like, we just really need to get people to wake up. 149 00:10:46,125 --> 00:10:48,465 Yeah, I agree 100 percent with that Dana. 150 00:10:49,175 --> 00:10:50,765 You're getting good at this. 151 00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:53,360 Uh, I just want to compliment you on that. 152 00:10:55,770 --> 00:11:01,789 Yeah, you know, a lot of people, they get nervous when they start touting the 153 00:11:01,789 --> 00:11:04,149 numbers, but you're really good at that. 154 00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:09,169 And I appreciate that you brought that awareness into what we're doing 155 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:15,059 because that's truly what we're about is highlighting these abuses. 156 00:11:15,109 --> 00:11:18,509 And we're getting better ourselves at doing this. 157 00:11:18,889 --> 00:11:24,915 My wife, you know, she was told the same thing, You'll never find anybody. 158 00:11:24,925 --> 00:11:26,375 You're not worth anything. 159 00:11:26,864 --> 00:11:32,344 And I can tell you, as a witness, what devastating 160 00:11:32,704 --> 00:11:35,454 consequences that has long term. 161 00:11:35,844 --> 00:11:40,095 And it's, it's such a shame because my wife is beautiful. 162 00:11:40,095 --> 00:11:43,765 She's one of the best persons on this planet. 163 00:11:44,165 --> 00:11:52,099 And I don't understand how her father or her mother could let this happen. 164 00:11:52,469 --> 00:11:55,199 But how could they even conclude that? 165 00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:58,729 It's really shameful in many ways. 166 00:11:58,890 --> 00:12:04,090 And that really is what you highlight, that narcissistic, 167 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:08,560 uh, disease in our culture. 168 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:15,380 And, and I really appreciate that you're taking the time doing these things. 169 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:23,880 What has been the most educational thing that you've learned since you've started 170 00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:27,870 podcasting about narcissistic behaviors. 171 00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:31,210 Wow. 172 00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:35,790 I mean, I think it's interesting, you know, I'm going to say this, 173 00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:39,269 I don't know if it's educational, but it's something that I learned. 174 00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:43,450 In the middle of a podcast interview, as a matter of fact, because this is 175 00:12:43,450 --> 00:12:49,809 the first thing that came to mind when you asked that question, you know, I 176 00:12:49,809 --> 00:12:53,189 got chills when you said that about your wife, because I'm forty-eight 177 00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:56,880 years old and I'm still dealing with it. 178 00:12:57,069 --> 00:13:03,329 Getting better, improving, but my God, it just never, that nagging feeling, 179 00:13:03,329 --> 00:13:07,520 that repeat of those words in your mind when something triggers that. 180 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,909 And, and I feel badly for my husband, because I'm remarried, and my husband 181 00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:16,929 is so sweet, and so gentle, and so amazing, and so understanding, even 182 00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:19,569 though he has no clue what this is like. 183 00:13:19,569 --> 00:13:24,149 Because he grew up in a tight knit, close, you know, very nice family. 184 00:13:24,689 --> 00:13:27,339 But he's so patient with me, thank God. 185 00:13:27,339 --> 00:13:35,445 But, you know, I was on this podcast and I was telling this story, you know, 186 00:13:35,445 --> 00:13:40,035 about how I was, you know, born to my mother and she was a teenager and she 187 00:13:40,035 --> 00:13:44,235 didn't want me and how I, right after my birth, I mean, immediately after 188 00:13:44,235 --> 00:13:46,285 my birth, she didn't even hold me. 189 00:13:46,665 --> 00:13:51,875 I was told, obviously I didn't remember, I was just born, but she had 190 00:13:51,875 --> 00:13:53,855 her tubes tied right then and there. 191 00:13:54,185 --> 00:13:55,245 Right then and there. 192 00:13:55,415 --> 00:13:58,875 Which tells me she didn't want any children, I was kind of cramping her 193 00:13:58,875 --> 00:14:02,794 style because she had plans for her life and I wasn't part of that plan. 194 00:14:03,515 --> 00:14:06,705 But I remember the podcast host saying 195 00:14:08,895 --> 00:14:11,465 that she kind of felt sorry for my mother. 196 00:14:11,485 --> 00:14:15,675 And at first I was, I mean, you could see my body here, I'm like, what? 197 00:14:16,165 --> 00:14:17,505 Like, I'm like appalled. 198 00:14:17,505 --> 00:14:19,154 Like, I'm the victim here. 199 00:14:19,165 --> 00:14:21,815 Like, I am the one that's had to deal with this. 200 00:14:22,755 --> 00:14:29,045 But I realized in that moment that that was my ego being insulted. 201 00:14:29,455 --> 00:14:32,665 Because when I actually got off that podcast and thought 202 00:14:32,665 --> 00:14:35,135 about it, I'm like, Man. 203 00:14:35,205 --> 00:14:38,255 You know, I mean, I am fully aware 204 00:14:38,615 --> 00:14:42,475 that what happened in my childhood, and I talk about that in my book, you know, my 205 00:14:42,475 --> 00:14:46,665 mother grew up in an abusive home as well. 206 00:14:46,825 --> 00:14:49,165 She had, do you want to talk about a narcissist? 207 00:14:49,245 --> 00:14:52,654 Her father was a drunk narcissist, put a gun to her head. 208 00:14:52,665 --> 00:14:57,574 Like, she endured horrors that no child should ever have to endure. 209 00:14:58,084 --> 00:15:01,935 And then the man she ended up marrying, well, he was literally, 210 00:15:01,935 --> 00:15:05,474 both parents abandoned him and his siblings when he was a baby. 211 00:15:05,535 --> 00:15:08,865 They were, grew up in foster care where he was abused. 212 00:15:08,865 --> 00:15:10,874 So like, I get it. 213 00:15:10,935 --> 00:15:13,994 I understand, but that does not excuse it. 214 00:15:14,635 --> 00:15:18,584 Because they still made a choice to abuse me. 215 00:15:18,795 --> 00:15:23,045 And having been abused, I mean, I didn't abuse my son. 216 00:15:23,074 --> 00:15:24,214 I made that choice. 217 00:15:24,484 --> 00:15:30,980 But going back to that feeling sorry for my mom, I realized in that after 218 00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:37,330 I got over myself, you know, and my own insult about that comment, 219 00:15:37,660 --> 00:15:39,410 I realized that, you know what? 220 00:15:40,205 --> 00:15:47,405 We're all living a human experience and who am I to say that my mother 221 00:15:47,455 --> 00:15:52,305 at sixteen years old or seventeen years old should have known better 222 00:15:52,434 --> 00:15:57,544 or should have been more aware to have made a choice to raise me right? 223 00:15:57,544 --> 00:16:01,275 Because I thought, Oh my gosh, I guess I feel bad for her too. 224 00:16:01,275 --> 00:16:05,584 Because I started thinking when I'm, you know, sixteen, seventeen years old, 225 00:16:05,584 --> 00:16:09,064 my God, you know, the biggest decision I had was like, what was I going to 226 00:16:09,064 --> 00:16:11,954 wear that day and change ten times. 227 00:16:11,954 --> 00:16:18,845 Like, life should be that petty and simple and ridiculous, not, Oh my gosh, 228 00:16:18,925 --> 00:16:25,640 I have now this baby and I'm living in an abusive home where my drunk narcissist 229 00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:29,520 father is slinging stuff around and bringing women home every night that 230 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,829 my mother has to walk into, you know, the living room and see him having sex 231 00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:36,640 with, that was the life she was living. 232 00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:41,834 And so taking a step back from myself and looking at it objectively, I'm like, 233 00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:44,275 Man, I guess I do feel sorry for her too. 234 00:16:44,415 --> 00:16:48,324 Because, you know, we always say they did the best they could, but we can't 235 00:16:48,324 --> 00:16:53,405 assume that everybody opens their eyes and says, Oh, I have to heal 236 00:16:53,415 --> 00:16:57,894 from all of this trauma so that I can be the best parent that I can be. 237 00:16:58,074 --> 00:17:01,844 I mean, it takes people sometimes till their thirties, or forties, 238 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:04,035 fifties, sixties, seventies to do that. 239 00:17:04,204 --> 00:17:06,145 How is she going to do that at sixteen? 240 00:17:06,665 --> 00:17:11,994 You know, so that was probably the biggest lesson that I've learned in all this. 241 00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:15,535 And I was so grateful to that podcast host, you know? 242 00:17:16,045 --> 00:17:18,774 You know, like I said, once I got over the offense. 243 00:17:18,774 --> 00:17:22,385 But it was a lesson for myself too, because that's exactly where 244 00:17:22,385 --> 00:17:24,744 narcissism comes from is the ego. 245 00:17:24,974 --> 00:17:28,014 And we all have it and we all operate in it. 246 00:17:28,065 --> 00:17:34,330 You know, when we feel offended, when we feel hurt, all insulted, that's our ego. 247 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,990 And, and I think that that's what made me realize that, you know what? 248 00:17:39,610 --> 00:17:42,330 I can let go of this. 249 00:17:43,499 --> 00:17:47,820 You know, I don't want to say I ever hated my mother, but I think I resented 250 00:17:47,820 --> 00:17:56,010 her tremendously for letting me grow up that way and letting all that stuff happen 251 00:17:56,020 --> 00:17:58,330 to me and, and her participation in it. 252 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,400 But I think that helped me to release that. 253 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:07,340 You know, a good portion of it and realize that she was living life, 254 00:18:07,690 --> 00:18:11,200 she was dealing with things the best that she knew at that age. 255 00:18:11,250 --> 00:18:17,080 She was just a baby herself and she didn't know what to do with me coming along. 256 00:18:17,385 --> 00:18:19,085 Now being a baby in her care. 257 00:18:19,365 --> 00:18:21,885 So it's eyeopening when you realize it. 258 00:18:21,885 --> 00:18:24,795 And certainly I don't want to be a narcissist and we all have 259 00:18:24,795 --> 00:18:30,204 narcissistic tendencies at times, you know, where we feel those 260 00:18:30,204 --> 00:18:32,304 things and our ego doesn't like it. 261 00:18:32,334 --> 00:18:37,045 But I think if we can be aware of it and move forward and move out of 262 00:18:37,045 --> 00:18:38,925 it, then that's where we'll be okay. 263 00:18:38,925 --> 00:18:42,715 And where we'll have room for that empathy that we need to have for others 264 00:18:42,725 --> 00:18:43,975 to make the world a better place. 265 00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:46,730 Yeah, that's true. 266 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:48,149 I like that a lot. 267 00:18:48,179 --> 00:18:53,669 And that is a good lesson because a lot of us overlook that simple fact. 268 00:18:54,149 --> 00:18:56,839 I, I often talk to my wife about this. 269 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:03,240 What did our family go through before we were even born that made them do this. 270 00:19:03,570 --> 00:19:09,020 And, and if we learn to empathize with that a little bit, our own troubles 271 00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:11,810 tend to lessen just a wee bit. 272 00:19:11,819 --> 00:19:16,920 Not, not everything, because like you said, it's a, lifelong 273 00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:19,170 thing, and we always feel it. 274 00:19:19,910 --> 00:19:26,610 I, I've been through abuse myself and I can tell you even men that want 275 00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:33,105 to pretend that they're tough and they, they appear nothing shocks or 276 00:19:33,105 --> 00:19:36,254 influences them, it does in many ways. 277 00:19:36,284 --> 00:19:42,964 And that behavior, it, it really induces this type of narcissistic 278 00:19:43,085 --> 00:19:45,645 behavior towards other people. 279 00:19:45,935 --> 00:19:47,344 Yeah, I agree with that. 280 00:19:47,344 --> 00:19:51,125 I think that comes out of an anger because you're repressing everything 281 00:19:51,125 --> 00:19:55,565 and, and you know, eventually it's going to just erupt out of you. 282 00:19:56,315 --> 00:19:58,345 Yeah, I agree a lot. 283 00:19:58,745 --> 00:20:06,690 And through discovery walking this path of healing, because it takes 284 00:20:06,690 --> 00:20:12,310 a long time, my wife and I are really starting to grow together 285 00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:16,480 now instead of just being together. 286 00:20:16,770 --> 00:20:18,649 And there's a big difference. 287 00:20:19,269 --> 00:20:25,800 You know, I love my wife and it took everything I had to 288 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,340 really look deep inside myself. 289 00:20:28,910 --> 00:20:36,070 Because I was a shameful guy, I came from dirt that was just stinky mud. 290 00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:41,259 And to clean it up, that's a choice, like you said. 291 00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:51,389 And this is what we have to remember, if you continue your walk, it's by choice. 292 00:20:52,534 --> 00:20:54,084 It's not an excuse. 293 00:20:54,775 --> 00:20:59,265 And a lot of people need to remember that and understand all you're 294 00:20:59,265 --> 00:21:02,095 doing is making it an excuse. 295 00:21:03,225 --> 00:21:06,675 There's always reasons we don't want to do something. 296 00:21:07,285 --> 00:21:14,504 And generally, it's because that shame and guilt that we feel from our own actions. 297 00:21:14,745 --> 00:21:15,764 Wouldn't you agree? 298 00:21:16,245 --> 00:21:17,915 I agree a hundred percent. 299 00:21:17,945 --> 00:21:22,124 And I think that also there's this misconception about healing. 300 00:21:22,415 --> 00:21:26,925 You know, I, I used to always get annoyed when people would say, 301 00:21:26,935 --> 00:21:30,504 cause it's a common thing, people say, Oh, let it go, let it go. 302 00:21:30,794 --> 00:21:35,705 And I, I remember getting frustrated with people when they kept saying that to me. 303 00:21:35,705 --> 00:21:38,564 And I would say, It's not like I'm trying to hold on to this. 304 00:21:39,084 --> 00:21:42,245 I don't want that, who the hell wants to live with this stuff in their head? 305 00:21:42,674 --> 00:21:45,064 But at the same time, I'll be honest with you. 306 00:21:45,064 --> 00:21:50,084 And this has been my journey of self awareness and self discovery was 307 00:21:50,094 --> 00:21:55,224 that as much as I didn't want to live like that, and as much as I did want 308 00:21:55,224 --> 00:21:57,635 to let go, I was holding on to it. 309 00:21:58,005 --> 00:21:59,625 I was holding on to it. 310 00:21:59,935 --> 00:22:04,735 You know, I, I told somebody recently that it's like, it's like I was thrown 311 00:22:04,735 --> 00:22:11,434 off a cliff and I'm hanging on to a rope and, and, and somebody you know, it 312 00:22:11,434 --> 00:22:16,094 could be any number of the people that abused me, just as willing to cut, cut 313 00:22:16,094 --> 00:22:18,185 that rope and let me fall to my death. 314 00:22:19,185 --> 00:22:23,825 You know, yet I'm the one that put myself, I went to the cliff with them. 315 00:22:24,065 --> 00:22:26,125 I was still holding onto that rope. 316 00:22:26,735 --> 00:22:30,324 I didn't have to be there, I didn't have to put myself in that circumstance. 317 00:22:30,324 --> 00:22:34,425 So I was, I was making a choice to hold on to that and to 318 00:22:34,885 --> 00:22:36,224 imprison myself in the past. 319 00:22:36,484 --> 00:22:40,605 And as long as I was imprisoning myself in the past, I could not let 320 00:22:40,645 --> 00:22:43,525 in the blessings of now, the present. 321 00:22:43,905 --> 00:22:44,765 The future. 322 00:22:45,065 --> 00:22:46,335 I couldn't be happy. 323 00:22:46,335 --> 00:22:48,965 Like that's a common thing and I, something I struggled 324 00:22:48,965 --> 00:22:50,955 with is, why can't I be happy? 325 00:22:50,955 --> 00:22:54,244 Like life is good now, why can't I be happy? 326 00:22:54,524 --> 00:22:59,054 Because I haven't settled the stuff of the past, I haven't resolved my 327 00:22:59,054 --> 00:23:04,884 anger and resentment and all that other stuff to be able to remove that, that, 328 00:23:04,894 --> 00:23:08,004 that crap from my heart, basically. 329 00:23:08,084 --> 00:23:12,554 I know that's not a nice word, but, um, the only one that came to mind. 330 00:23:12,554 --> 00:23:17,624 But once you can remove that muck from your heart, then you have room for the 331 00:23:17,624 --> 00:23:20,215 joy and the happy and all that good stuff. 332 00:23:20,485 --> 00:23:22,004 But we just don't know. 333 00:23:22,004 --> 00:23:25,945 And, and honestly, in my defense, having grown up in that childhood and 334 00:23:25,945 --> 00:23:31,280 then spending twenty-five years with an abusive husband in a marriage, honestly, 335 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:38,910 I think I was so used to the chaos that I had just forgotten how to just be. 336 00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:44,760 And how to just be happy and how to even let myself feel happiness. 337 00:23:44,770 --> 00:23:46,719 Because I was afraid to. 338 00:23:46,719 --> 00:23:49,470 I was like, The bomb's gonna drop, I can't trust this. 339 00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:54,489 This is not what it really, you know, this isn't what it appears to be. 340 00:23:54,499 --> 00:23:57,989 Whether it's a person, a situation, I can't let my guard down. 341 00:23:58,455 --> 00:24:03,035 Can't smile, can't laugh, can't do any of that because I got to be on guard. 342 00:24:03,315 --> 00:24:04,675 I have to be vigilant. 343 00:24:05,235 --> 00:24:11,025 Well, you know, at some point I, I had to make the decision and, and, and 344 00:24:11,025 --> 00:24:13,434 tell myself, Lay the sword down, honey. 345 00:24:13,775 --> 00:24:15,554 Lay the damn sword down. 346 00:24:16,265 --> 00:24:19,945 We don't have to fight anymore, there's nobody to fight. 347 00:24:20,255 --> 00:24:24,015 You know, and it takes a long time and I'm sure your wife can relate, 348 00:24:24,925 --> 00:24:29,545 it takes a long time for you to convince your mind that you're okay. 349 00:24:29,855 --> 00:24:33,115 And then your body takes even longer sometimes. 350 00:24:33,115 --> 00:24:38,715 That, that nervous system that, that serves basically as, as an inner alarm 351 00:24:38,735 --> 00:24:42,414 for us, you know, to know if we're in danger or not, it takes it a long 352 00:24:42,415 --> 00:24:48,445 time to trust how things are now and to settle and to know you're okay. 353 00:24:48,925 --> 00:24:51,884 And, but it has to start in your mind. 354 00:24:51,905 --> 00:24:56,075 There is a true mind and body connection and we have to make the choice. 355 00:24:56,304 --> 00:25:00,105 And now what, what frustrates me now is when people reach out to me, 356 00:25:00,105 --> 00:25:04,465 and I, I feel it, like they say, I want to, I want to let it go. 357 00:25:04,465 --> 00:25:06,505 I want to move past it, I want to heal. 358 00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:08,315 I want it to, whatever it is. 359 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:09,330 But they don't. 360 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,030 Because you give them, you can hand them on a silver platter, here's what you 361 00:25:14,050 --> 00:25:16,130 need to do, or here's what worked for me. 362 00:25:16,130 --> 00:25:18,270 And those, Oh, that won't work for me. 363 00:25:18,340 --> 00:25:19,830 Oh, I can't do that. 364 00:25:20,220 --> 00:25:23,540 There's no such thing as can't and that's a whole other lecture. 365 00:25:23,879 --> 00:25:25,149 It is a choice though. 366 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,679 You can, you know? 367 00:25:26,679 --> 00:25:29,829 I used to coach cross country and I used to tell the kids, No, you can't 368 00:25:29,829 --> 00:25:36,810 run ten miles today, but you can maybe in the future, if you start practicing 369 00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:38,500 and taking the steps towards it. 370 00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:43,299 But you're never going to get anywhere, you can't if you decide you're not to. 371 00:25:43,499 --> 00:25:45,979 If you say that to yourself, you won't. 372 00:25:46,239 --> 00:25:51,099 So we need to start talking to ourselves in a kinder way, we need to start 373 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,099 reminding ourselves of our worth. 374 00:25:53,379 --> 00:25:55,799 You know, instead of looking for it externally. 375 00:25:56,049 --> 00:26:00,490 And we need to start really just kind of nurturing ourselves when 376 00:26:00,490 --> 00:26:04,570 we didn't have that parent or, or, God forbid, in my case, both 377 00:26:04,570 --> 00:26:07,000 parents to nurture you in that way. 378 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,760 You kind of grow up and find yourself in your forties, you know, 379 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,959 kind of being your own parent and trying to nurture that, that stuff 380 00:26:14,959 --> 00:26:17,680 inside you that needs to feel okay. 381 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,620 So that you can live the rest of your life having some, some peace, if nothing else. 382 00:26:23,865 --> 00:26:24,255 Yeah. 383 00:26:24,435 --> 00:26:26,795 Well, there's no manual for any of this. 384 00:26:27,185 --> 00:26:33,324 And, and, you know, it's very interesting, my wife went through physical and sexual 385 00:26:33,324 --> 00:26:37,685 abuse and your book opens up with this. 386 00:26:38,395 --> 00:26:42,414 It's, it's the same, same thing. 387 00:26:42,644 --> 00:26:51,014 You know, your father or stepfather, excuse me, he, he basically doesn't 388 00:26:51,174 --> 00:26:53,644 realize he's dealing with a child. 389 00:26:54,794 --> 00:26:59,445 You know, going to a TV set and clicking a TV knob. 390 00:27:00,605 --> 00:27:04,294 I used to do that constantly because I was trying to figure 391 00:27:04,295 --> 00:27:06,284 out what made it work, you know? 392 00:27:06,805 --> 00:27:07,345 So 393 00:27:08,534 --> 00:27:10,745 Yeah, I just liked the clicking sound. 394 00:27:10,745 --> 00:27:14,114 And I was, yeah, you're a little kid, you're just messing around. 395 00:27:14,114 --> 00:27:20,920 But yeah, they, they, it's very sad to me that a grown man, though, can 396 00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:30,020 feel that, that need, that insatiable need to harm a little tiny child. 397 00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:34,719 So that they can have their peace, I suppose. 398 00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:37,850 But yeah, it's hard. 399 00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:38,770 It's hard. 400 00:27:38,770 --> 00:27:42,940 And you know, when I grew up, when I got to be a teenager and got to be 401 00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:48,520 the same size, I was bigger and I was angrier, I got pretty damn angry by the 402 00:27:48,530 --> 00:27:50,820 time I was fifteen, sixteen you know? 403 00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:55,210 But to have your own mother put her hands around your neck and, and to 404 00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:59,099 black out and think you're gonna, you're, you know, I remember thinking, 405 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:00,520 my, my mother's going to kill me. 406 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:05,540 I'm, my life is over right now, you know, and, and that's a horrible thing. 407 00:28:05,540 --> 00:28:07,370 And it's hard to get past that. 408 00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:11,885 Because, you know, I always joke, but it's not funny, like, you know, 409 00:28:11,935 --> 00:28:15,505 I know Charles Manson was an orphan, but you know, like Jeffrey Dahmer, I'm 410 00:28:15,505 --> 00:28:20,735 thinking of like serial killers, like did horrific things, chopping people 411 00:28:20,735 --> 00:28:22,545 up and hiding them in his freezer. 412 00:28:22,935 --> 00:28:24,175 You know, dozens of people. 413 00:28:24,424 --> 00:28:28,235 Yet his mother was still sitting behind him in court, that was still her son. 414 00:28:28,235 --> 00:28:31,764 She acknowledged he did wrong, but she still loved her son and was there. 415 00:28:31,795 --> 00:28:36,374 And I'm thinking, my God, I was like the ultimate people pleasing child. 416 00:28:36,375 --> 00:28:39,784 Like I, I strove for perfection. 417 00:28:39,804 --> 00:28:44,565 I strove to do everything exactly right, I was a straight arrow. 418 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,149 You know, good kid, good grades, never got in trouble, never smoked, never drank, 419 00:28:50,530 --> 00:28:51,160 like why? 420 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,070 I just wanted to be seen, I just wanted to be acknowledged 421 00:28:55,449 --> 00:28:57,610 and there was just nothing. 422 00:28:57,699 --> 00:29:00,799 I could, and so that, that's a hard thing. 423 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,400 I mean, I watched my barn cats reject some kittens sometimes. 424 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,160 But my God, when it's your mother, like, how can you, how can you 425 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,700 believe anybody ever would love you if your own mother can't? 426 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,129 Because she's the one person who's supposed to when nobody else does. 427 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,640 And that's a tough one. 428 00:29:19,995 --> 00:29:20,304 Yeah. 429 00:29:20,935 --> 00:29:23,685 So, so, you know, it's very interesting. 430 00:29:23,875 --> 00:29:28,764 We talk about generational curses and traumas. 431 00:29:30,605 --> 00:29:35,745 That choice to change, you know, that, that is really heavy. 432 00:29:35,745 --> 00:29:42,944 And I'm still trying to pinpoint what makes us change and choose to not 433 00:29:43,044 --> 00:29:46,125 follow that generational guidance. 434 00:29:46,405 --> 00:29:52,360 Because I think this really deep and we need to really kind of pinpoint 435 00:29:52,660 --> 00:29:59,320 the why and what makes the individual choose to go in a different direction. 436 00:30:00,665 --> 00:30:04,495 Yeah, that's interesting because I don't have the answer to that. 437 00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:10,010 I can only speak to my experience and what, what was different for me. 438 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,230 I think two things. 439 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,429 One of the biggest things was that we have to acknowledge the 440 00:30:16,429 --> 00:30:19,280 fact that society progresses. 441 00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:26,370 Because I'm generation X and I've noticed that the baby boomer generation, 442 00:30:26,370 --> 00:30:32,240 which is the one that came before mine, baby boomers and older tend to 443 00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:36,950 have come from that hush hush polite society where you don't talk about it. 444 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:37,530 I mean 445 00:30:37,530 --> 00:30:41,019 women in the thirties, forties, and fifties, and sixties were 446 00:30:41,019 --> 00:30:43,270 being, you know, abused by husbands. 447 00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:46,059 You know, they put concealer over their eyes 448 00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:47,610 and they hid, you know, 449 00:30:47,610 --> 00:30:52,545 they had the nice wavy curls, you know, those fancy hairdos, and they kept their 450 00:30:52,545 --> 00:30:57,145 head down when they went to the grocery store and nobody asked and nobody told 451 00:30:57,405 --> 00:31:00,475 and it just was what it was, same with kids. 452 00:31:00,705 --> 00:31:04,734 But we also had that, you know, we didn't have electronics back, you 453 00:31:04,735 --> 00:31:09,110 know, even when I was a kid that if somebody had an issue with you, they 454 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,100 beat your butt on the school playground. 455 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:15,340 They beat your butt on your lawn outside your house, they came knocking on your 456 00:31:15,340 --> 00:31:19,630 door looking for you and grabbed you by the cuff of your shirt, drug you 457 00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:21,470 outside and beat the crap out of you. 458 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,729 And nobody's parent was stopping it. 459 00:31:23,729 --> 00:31:27,200 And nobody, you know, you had a black eye, you had some bruises 460 00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:29,799 and that's just how it was. 461 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:33,249 And you took it because you knew you probably, you know, had 462 00:31:33,249 --> 00:31:34,719 done something to deserve it. 463 00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:36,820 That's just how life was. 464 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:42,930 So I think to some extent, there was an acceptance. 465 00:31:43,140 --> 00:31:49,840 And you add on to that, I mean, this is, I'm tying in spousal abuse and 466 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,970 child abuse because it is, it kind of does go hand in hand, obviously. 467 00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:00,535 Um, but even as recent as the seventies when I was born, a woman in the 468 00:32:00,545 --> 00:32:06,455 United States of America, all these freedoms we talk about now, a woman 469 00:32:06,455 --> 00:32:12,435 could not file charges against her husband for domestic abuse or violence. 470 00:32:12,964 --> 00:32:15,095 Oh my gosh. 471 00:32:15,484 --> 00:32:19,174 And you know, the thing is, is that men get abused by women too. 472 00:32:19,325 --> 00:32:23,655 But a man back then would oh, there was too much pride in being a man. 473 00:32:23,675 --> 00:32:27,675 A man would never even admit that his wife was abusing. 474 00:32:27,765 --> 00:32:32,874 So you have to remember that now that, I hate to say, I go back to the social 475 00:32:32,875 --> 00:32:36,064 stuff, social media, the internet, really, 476 00:32:36,064 --> 00:32:36,935 when did it come out? 477 00:32:36,945 --> 00:32:42,485 1995 I think was the first time the internet was available to everybody, and 478 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:46,940 now that there's all this information and people are connecting and things are 479 00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:52,860 being exposed, there, I think everything's kind of being blown open to where we 480 00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:54,930 don't have to keep secrets anymore. 481 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:01,195 So I think that's partially why we are more vocal about it 482 00:33:01,225 --> 00:33:05,105 and we're more, you know, we're bringing more awareness to things. 483 00:33:05,175 --> 00:33:09,135 And thank goodness, because nobody should have to hide that stuff. 484 00:33:09,135 --> 00:33:13,434 And I think I should have a right as a child, or as a wife, or if 485 00:33:13,435 --> 00:33:16,954 it were a husband, or whatever it is, to go to somebody and say this 486 00:33:16,955 --> 00:33:18,684 is happening and it needs to stop. 487 00:33:18,965 --> 00:33:23,105 And that's where we're still struggling in this society. 488 00:33:23,405 --> 00:33:28,934 Because you know they say seventy some percent of child abuse cases 489 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,810 are actually reported by teachers. 490 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,490 And that bothers me because you cannot tell me that if there's a 491 00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:42,380 two parent household or even more than one child in a household that 492 00:33:42,380 --> 00:33:43,800 they don't know what's going on. 493 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,490 And you can't tell me the neighbor isn't seeing it, or the bus driver 494 00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:51,800 on the school bus, or the people at church, or at the library, or 495 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,750 wherever else this kid is going. 496 00:33:54,730 --> 00:34:00,815 And it just pains me, it pains me because I was that kid. 497 00:34:01,285 --> 00:34:06,755 I was that kid that also went to school with my head down, wearing long sleeves 498 00:34:06,764 --> 00:34:11,565 when it was hot in the summer to hide the marks on my arms and, and on my legs. 499 00:34:11,565 --> 00:34:15,964 And, and I wanted somebody to see, and on the very rare occasions, somebody 500 00:34:15,964 --> 00:34:17,635 would say, Is there something going on? 501 00:34:17,675 --> 00:34:20,465 Nope, nothing's, because I was terrified. 502 00:34:20,735 --> 00:34:23,935 But we need people to be more involved. 503 00:34:23,955 --> 00:34:28,165 And, and, you know, not necessarily push the child more to expose it, 504 00:34:28,165 --> 00:34:30,855 but maybe bring more attention to it. 505 00:34:31,115 --> 00:34:33,355 You know, there has to be consequences. 506 00:34:33,385 --> 00:34:38,664 Because I look back at my situation and granted I haven't, I'm not really fully 507 00:34:38,665 --> 00:34:44,550 aware of how child services works in my area, nevermind all areas of this 508 00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:50,319 country, but in the nineties when they came into my life and I had a round 509 00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:52,300 with them, they didn't do a whole lot. 510 00:34:52,579 --> 00:34:55,010 They didn't do crap, honestly. 511 00:34:55,340 --> 00:35:00,310 They interviewed my, my mother and stepfather's employees at their business 512 00:35:00,310 --> 00:35:04,035 who said they were these great, great people who would never do that to me. 513 00:35:04,255 --> 00:35:08,055 Well, they wanted their jobs, my goodness gracious. 514 00:35:08,085 --> 00:35:12,065 I mean, ask somebody else, because let me tell you something, 515 00:35:14,255 --> 00:35:16,445 child services didn't do anything. 516 00:35:16,625 --> 00:35:19,724 And they left my brother, my little brother. 517 00:35:19,734 --> 00:35:23,865 Cause my mother did end up reversing her tubal ligation and having a child 518 00:35:23,875 --> 00:35:26,435 with my stepfather because I wasn't his. 519 00:35:26,435 --> 00:35:31,480 He made that so blatantly a big part of my childhood that I wasn't 520 00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:32,960 his, he wanted his own child. 521 00:35:33,310 --> 00:35:34,620 So they ended up having a child. 522 00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:38,710 But even when I was under investigation all of this stuff, they left 523 00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:40,069 my little brother in the home. 524 00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:43,959 And it just made me remember that book, I don't know if anyone has read this, 525 00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:45,869 it's called A Child Called It. 526 00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:49,350 I think David Pelzer is the author. 527 00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:51,710 This came out back in the nineties. 528 00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:55,710 But he was one of five children, one of the worst cases of 529 00:35:55,710 --> 00:35:57,600 abuse in California history. 530 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,300 And he was the only one abused in that house by the mother and severely abused. 531 00:36:03,580 --> 00:36:08,250 The other kids noticed it, would even leave the room, sometimes even 532 00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:13,764 participate as far as helping the mother prepare or arrange for it. 533 00:36:14,125 --> 00:36:16,385 And the husband, the father, was in the home. 534 00:36:16,415 --> 00:36:22,205 And also the one thing that startled me in that book was, one of the times that the, 535 00:36:22,275 --> 00:36:26,935 you know, the, the author was saying he, he, he knew he was about to get abused. 536 00:36:27,074 --> 00:36:30,654 You know, his mother would tell him, Okay, this is happening now. 537 00:36:30,654 --> 00:36:35,605 And I mean, she was like putting an iron on him and burning him, and 538 00:36:35,865 --> 00:36:40,615 putting his hands on open flames on the, just doing horrific things to him. 539 00:36:41,105 --> 00:36:45,525 And the dad was like, Okay, I'm going to take the other kids, the 540 00:36:45,525 --> 00:36:47,535 other four kids out for ice cream. 541 00:36:47,755 --> 00:36:50,075 Like, are you kidding me right now? 542 00:36:50,335 --> 00:36:53,125 He knew that his wife was about to abuse. 543 00:36:53,415 --> 00:36:56,855 But this is, this is the thing, granted that that's, you know, 544 00:36:56,875 --> 00:37:00,974 there are these extraordinarily, you know, exceptional stories. 545 00:37:01,405 --> 00:37:04,425 And, and mine is certainly not one of those. 546 00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:10,420 But the fact that this happens every single day and nobody, even the people 547 00:37:10,420 --> 00:37:12,350 in the home, don't do anything about it. 548 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,250 Because I'm going to tell you something. 549 00:37:14,250 --> 00:37:19,259 When my book came out, um, it was released a little early. 550 00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:26,239 So I got a phone call, said unknown number, and when I answered, I 551 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,290 recognized the voice, but you know how you can't quite place it, and 552 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:32,060 she said, Do you know who this is? 553 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,330 And I was like, I felt embarrassed, you know, like, I'm like, 554 00:37:36,330 --> 00:37:37,570 I should know who this is. 555 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:38,480 But I didn't know who it was. 556 00:37:39,140 --> 00:37:41,470 Anyway, she, she told me who she was. 557 00:37:41,739 --> 00:37:45,470 It was somebody that, she was an adult in my life. 558 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,520 So she cut my hair. 559 00:37:47,669 --> 00:37:50,699 She was my hairdresser, I guess you would say, when I was a little girl 560 00:37:50,699 --> 00:37:55,260 from the time I was probably five or six all the way up through college. 561 00:37:55,860 --> 00:37:58,525 And I mean, this is a hairdresser. 562 00:37:59,645 --> 00:38:01,015 How often did I see her? 563 00:38:01,015 --> 00:38:02,365 A few times a year? 564 00:38:03,875 --> 00:38:06,285 She says, I'm so glad to hear your voice. 565 00:38:06,435 --> 00:38:08,345 She says, I saw your book. 566 00:38:08,964 --> 00:38:14,035 A friend of mine told me you released this book, and she said, You know, 567 00:38:14,324 --> 00:38:16,134 I didn't know your stepfather. 568 00:38:16,175 --> 00:38:19,085 I only saw your mother when she would bring you in. 569 00:38:19,545 --> 00:38:22,885 But she says, Your mother was always so melancholy. 570 00:38:23,005 --> 00:38:26,825 Like I knew there was something going on and I can tell looking at you every 571 00:38:26,825 --> 00:38:28,345 time there was something going on. 572 00:38:28,345 --> 00:38:34,214 And she said, I always thought I would look at the news and see that he had 573 00:38:34,214 --> 00:38:38,975 killed you and your mother, like in some kind of like family murder, suicide thing. 574 00:38:38,975 --> 00:38:41,365 And just leave your bodies at the side of the road dead. 575 00:38:41,665 --> 00:38:43,765 So she says, I'm so glad you're okay. 576 00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:48,680 And I mean, it was touching that she got in touch with me and 577 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,210 I was glad to hear from her. 578 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:57,070 But, again, it reiterated that, this frustration I have that if somebody 579 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,800 even remotely thought, I mean, why didn't you err on the side of caution? 580 00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:04,170 Why didn't you alert somebody? 581 00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:09,300 Why didn't you pull me aside and ask me what was going on? 582 00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:13,720 Why am I forty-eight years old and just now hearing that somebody that 583 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:18,689 last saw me thirty years ago is telling me she's glad I'm alive. 584 00:39:18,690 --> 00:39:22,739 And, and, and we have, you know, we have communicated since. 585 00:39:22,739 --> 00:39:27,005 And I don't hold anybody responsible because at the end of the day, the 586 00:39:27,005 --> 00:39:29,025 responsible party is the abuser. 587 00:39:29,255 --> 00:39:32,635 But going back to child services, I just want to say one more thing. 588 00:39:32,865 --> 00:39:35,675 And this is what really makes me angry about this. 589 00:39:35,675 --> 00:39:40,565 And what really needs to still change in society is that, what do they do? 590 00:39:41,164 --> 00:39:44,035 They took me out of the home temporarily. 591 00:39:44,245 --> 00:39:48,165 Granted I got sent back, but they take the child out of the home. 592 00:39:49,130 --> 00:39:54,120 Sometimes in the more severe cases or when they actually do their job and see 593 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,300 that this child needs help, the child gets whatever services, counseling, 594 00:39:59,310 --> 00:40:01,560 therapy, whatever treatments they need. 595 00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:03,980 Thank God. 596 00:40:04,750 --> 00:40:06,210 But what about the abusers? 597 00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:11,510 Why aren't they being removed from the home? 598 00:40:12,130 --> 00:40:15,430 Why aren't they getting the treatment that they need? 599 00:40:16,330 --> 00:40:20,140 Why aren't they being forced, I'm sorry, healing should be a choice, 600 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,580 and it's a lot of work, but why aren't they attempting to rehabilitate the 601 00:40:25,580 --> 00:40:28,010 people that are doing these things? 602 00:40:28,210 --> 00:40:32,510 Because until we go, you know, you can't just put a bandaid on something, 603 00:40:32,850 --> 00:40:34,380 you have to go to the core of it. 604 00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:36,860 That's what healing is when we're trying to heal. 605 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:40,330 But I can heal all day long, but you want to know something? 606 00:40:40,570 --> 00:40:42,290 My mother and I are estranged. 607 00:40:42,290 --> 00:40:45,179 My stepfather, he doesn't talk to me either, and I don't really 608 00:40:45,179 --> 00:40:49,590 care about him, but there's no healing going on in their house. 609 00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:53,000 Nobody has gone to therapy to face their trauma. 610 00:40:53,730 --> 00:40:58,545 They are going through the same motions every day like nothing is 611 00:40:58,545 --> 00:41:02,335 wrong, refusing to face it, and projecting it on to other people. 612 00:41:02,385 --> 00:41:04,745 Me, mainly, because I'm the scapegoat. 613 00:41:05,085 --> 00:41:11,474 Even though we have no contact, I'm still being talked about, lied about, and 614 00:41:11,474 --> 00:41:17,064 scapegoated as the reason for all of their problems and all of their angst and woes. 615 00:41:17,434 --> 00:41:20,155 And I think that is the most ridiculous thing. 616 00:41:20,165 --> 00:41:24,605 We have to catch up, we have to start taking these parents out of the homes. 617 00:41:25,145 --> 00:41:29,935 Stop with trying to fix the kid because there's nothing wrong with the kid, 618 00:41:30,175 --> 00:41:31,815 there's something wrong with the parent. 619 00:41:33,035 --> 00:41:33,425 Yeah. 620 00:41:33,465 --> 00:41:39,825 Yeah, there's big problems and issues with the whole system, how we handle this. 621 00:41:39,895 --> 00:41:45,875 And, you know, the, the big thing here, Dana, I think you really highlighted 622 00:41:46,084 --> 00:41:52,824 is, awareness is being brought since the introduction of the internet. 623 00:41:52,994 --> 00:41:57,225 And there's more people like me and you sitting, talking, and 624 00:41:57,225 --> 00:42:03,155 then sharing our talk and people are going, Yeah, that's right. 625 00:42:03,795 --> 00:42:06,025 And that's empowering. 626 00:42:06,515 --> 00:42:14,245 So I think with the advent of the computer and the internet, there's so 627 00:42:14,245 --> 00:42:22,180 much wrong with it too, but yet, it is giving some life saving, in a degree, 628 00:42:23,820 --> 00:42:28,070 harmonious balance to discussion. 629 00:42:28,450 --> 00:42:33,599 And I really think that is what's needed, is communication. 630 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:40,350 Because that's really how we fix things, is we communicate the problem and then we 631 00:42:40,670 --> 00:42:44,230 can communicate a way to fix the problem. 632 00:42:44,570 --> 00:42:49,000 So I really do think you just highlighted a big thing there. 633 00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:58,999 The tipping point surely must have been that availability of the 634 00:42:58,999 --> 00:43:01,630 internet to reach out to others. 635 00:43:02,410 --> 00:43:07,240 Because we can see more than ever, I'm not alone. 636 00:43:07,850 --> 00:43:10,780 And I think it's really huge what's being done here. 637 00:43:12,060 --> 00:43:13,020 I like it a lot. 638 00:43:15,139 --> 00:43:16,709 And that I will agree with. 639 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,299 Yeah, I agree with that because that's the one thing that, I mean, 640 00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:24,489 I didn't even get on the internet or social, well, I should say internet, 641 00:43:24,489 --> 00:43:30,125 I didn't get onto social media until probably 20, 21, I mean, it's very 642 00:43:30,125 --> 00:43:31,985 recent, just the last couple of years. 643 00:43:32,235 --> 00:43:36,245 But it's something that definitely, I don't think it's the cure all, but 644 00:43:36,245 --> 00:43:38,545 I think it definitely helps to know. 645 00:43:38,554 --> 00:43:43,194 Because I think we need to know that it's not just us because that helps 646 00:43:43,194 --> 00:43:45,405 us realize that it's not personal. 647 00:43:45,904 --> 00:43:50,395 I mean, even though we've internalized it as this is about me and who I 648 00:43:50,395 --> 00:43:54,805 am, and, and I have no place, and I'm deficient and I'm not enough. 649 00:43:55,245 --> 00:44:00,515 When we see, Oh, there's a whole group called, you know, Daughters of 650 00:44:00,515 --> 00:44:03,885 Narcissistic Mothers and Daughters of Narcissistic Fathers and, and there's 651 00:44:03,945 --> 00:44:05,715 thousands of people in this group. 652 00:44:06,065 --> 00:44:07,424 Oh, I'm not alone. 653 00:44:07,424 --> 00:44:10,764 And people are sharing, you know, snippets of their story. 654 00:44:10,764 --> 00:44:13,285 And you're like, Oh my gosh, me too. 655 00:44:13,475 --> 00:44:14,645 That happened to me. 656 00:44:14,824 --> 00:44:17,885 Oh, but you know, this is what helped me work that out. 657 00:44:17,885 --> 00:44:18,975 Or this is what I do. 658 00:44:18,975 --> 00:44:23,945 And that's, and so to have that support, definitely, definitely helps you. 659 00:44:23,945 --> 00:44:27,715 Because it's essentially, that's helping create that connection that 660 00:44:27,715 --> 00:44:31,395 you didn't have early in childhood that, that made you feel this way. 661 00:44:32,525 --> 00:44:33,025 That's right. 662 00:44:33,195 --> 00:44:35,375 It's a good catalyst, that's for sure. 663 00:44:36,145 --> 00:44:41,824 Dana, we could talk for hours on this and, you know, it just 664 00:44:41,825 --> 00:44:43,605 seems like we just got started. 665 00:44:44,605 --> 00:44:46,595 However, our time is short. 666 00:44:47,125 --> 00:44:51,985 Uh, would you please let people know where they can find your book? 667 00:44:52,725 --> 00:44:55,805 And do you have a call to action for people? 668 00:44:56,155 --> 00:44:57,715 Yes, absolutely. 669 00:44:57,785 --> 00:45:02,715 Number one, my website, danasdiaz.com, you will find the links for 670 00:45:02,715 --> 00:45:07,185 both books, Gasping for Air and Choking on Shame on the website. 671 00:45:07,185 --> 00:45:12,665 Links to Facebook, links to Instagram, you can email me, message me on social media. 672 00:45:12,685 --> 00:45:16,435 I respond personally, I don't have any automated message. 673 00:45:16,435 --> 00:45:20,575 So, you know, you will get a response actually from me and I'm happy to 674 00:45:20,575 --> 00:45:22,464 hear from people, whatever it is. 675 00:45:22,464 --> 00:45:27,344 And if I can't help you, I will direct you to whatever resources that 676 00:45:27,395 --> 00:45:29,445 I think might be able to help you. 677 00:45:29,835 --> 00:45:31,935 Um, call to action. 678 00:45:31,985 --> 00:45:35,195 I would just, this is all I ever ask from anybody. 679 00:45:35,195 --> 00:45:38,075 And it sounds so like, you know, like I want everyone to get 680 00:45:38,075 --> 00:45:39,894 in a circle and sing Kumbaya. 681 00:45:40,265 --> 00:45:47,495 But all I ever ask for people is just be kind and, you know, it's asking 682 00:45:47,495 --> 00:45:49,295 you to have this domino effect. 683 00:45:49,315 --> 00:45:50,885 Just start in your home. 684 00:45:51,164 --> 00:45:55,885 If you have a roommate, a spouse, a kid, whoever you're living with, be 685 00:45:55,885 --> 00:46:01,844 kind, give them grace, give yourself that same grace and that same kindness. 686 00:46:02,184 --> 00:46:07,450 And I think if we can just start there with that small little piece, then 687 00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:12,420 maybe we're going to go out in the world and spread it like that domino effect. 688 00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:16,329 Because I mean, sometimes that really nasty, angry person, that 689 00:46:16,330 --> 00:46:20,770 person that's just obstinate and rude, you know, I, I hate to say, 690 00:46:20,770 --> 00:46:22,490 but sometimes they just need a hug. 691 00:46:22,499 --> 00:46:27,780 Sometimes maybe they're like me, maybe just nobody loved them. 692 00:46:28,060 --> 00:46:30,070 They may be a narcissist, but you know what? 693 00:46:30,070 --> 00:46:32,730 You have nothing to lose by being kind, it's free. 694 00:46:32,770 --> 00:46:35,060 Doesn't cost you anything, little effort. 695 00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:36,450 So just be kind, please. 696 00:46:37,715 --> 00:46:38,395 I love it. 697 00:46:38,705 --> 00:46:43,315 Dana, you're a very powerful individual out there doing incredible work. 698 00:46:43,675 --> 00:46:47,745 I want to say thank you for coming back, sharing it again here on 699 00:46:47,745 --> 00:46:49,544 the Dead America Podcast with us. 700 00:46:50,075 --> 00:46:50,844 I appreciate it. 701 00:46:50,845 --> 00:46:52,465 Thank you again for having me back. 702 00:46:55,474 --> 00:46:57,334 Thank you for joining us today. 703 00:46:57,824 --> 00:47:04,060 If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, 704 00:47:04,860 --> 00:47:11,210 please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another 705 00:47:11,230 --> 00:47:14,520 great episode of the Dead America Podcast. 706 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,410 I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you might be.