1 00:00:01,110 --> 00:00:03,480 Can you feel it coming? 2 00:00:03,810 --> 00:00:06,450 Something's waking up inside. 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:14,780 Hearts ablaze, we're standing tall breaking chains of yesterday. 4 00:00:15,610 --> 00:00:25,679 Dead America finds it's voice, in the darkness, we make choice. 5 00:00:25,979 --> 00:00:32,070 Truth and healing lead the way, hearts ablaze, we're here to stay. 6 00:00:32,259 --> 00:00:45,430 Rise from ashes, come what may, we're finding hope in disarray. 7 00:00:45,675 --> 00:00:49,025 Today, we're speaking with Dr. Sheldon Greaves. 8 00:00:50,475 --> 00:00:55,215 He is the author of The Gorrilla Scholars Handbook. 9 00:00:56,295 --> 00:00:59,085 Dr. Greaves, could you please introduce yourself? 10 00:00:59,085 --> 00:01:02,144 Let people know just a little more about you, please. 11 00:01:04,215 --> 00:01:04,724 Sure. 12 00:01:04,785 --> 00:01:11,895 Um, I, uh, uh, I live in, uh, Albany, Oregon, uh, with my wife and three cats. 13 00:01:12,045 --> 00:01:16,785 Uh, I, uh, have a PhD from the University of California Berkeley 14 00:01:16,785 --> 00:01:21,884 in Ancient Near Eastern Studies, uh, which is not particularly marketable, 15 00:01:21,934 --> 00:01:28,020 but it's, uh, forced me to develop a different way of doing intellectual 16 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:33,840 work, uh, in ways that are creative and unusual and frankly unconventional. 17 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:42,160 So, uh, my path has taken me to, um, uh, starting a small, uh, science software 18 00:01:42,180 --> 00:01:48,930 education company, uh, working on a, um, uh, an amateur space lift capable rocket 19 00:01:49,530 --> 00:01:55,890 and co-founding the first, uh, university designed from the ground up for training 20 00:01:55,890 --> 00:01:59,340 people in intelligence, counter-terrorism, and executive protection. 21 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,290 Uh, so it's kind of a wild thing for someone who spent a lot of 22 00:02:04,290 --> 00:02:07,690 time in graduate school, you know, learning how to read, uh, ancient 23 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:09,340 parchments and clay tablets. 24 00:02:10,030 --> 00:02:15,730 Uh, what I have done is I've taken what I have learned from that journey 25 00:02:15,730 --> 00:02:21,070 and put it into this book, which is basically about how to do interesting 26 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:28,510 and intellectual work when you don't have access to the tools, uh, of academia. 27 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:37,015 Uh, I'm, uh, I, I like to say that I'm an, an elitist in the sense that I believe 28 00:02:37,015 --> 00:02:42,715 that we need elite thinkers in every corner and at every level of society. 29 00:02:43,465 --> 00:02:51,565 And my book is a pathway to, uh, making that happen both individually 30 00:02:51,565 --> 00:02:57,390 and uh, using a life of the mind, a collective life of the mind, is a way 31 00:02:57,390 --> 00:03:02,520 of enhancing and augmenting our, our social lives, our community lives. 32 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:07,950 You know, it's pretty interesting and very deep in what you do. 33 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:18,225 So, talk to us first about why did you decide to write this book and what do you 34 00:03:18,225 --> 00:03:21,315 think that it will add to our society? 35 00:03:23,115 --> 00:03:29,980 Um, well, what kind of started me going on it was, um, uh, actually another book that 36 00:03:29,980 --> 00:03:35,890 I encountered back in the, oh boy, this would've been the late eighties, uh, it 37 00:03:35,890 --> 00:03:40,359 was called, uh, The Independent Scholars Handbook by a guy named Ronald Gross. 38 00:03:40,450 --> 00:03:47,260 And he introduced me to a whole other way of thinking about what it 39 00:03:47,260 --> 00:03:49,269 means to have a life of the mind. 40 00:03:49,899 --> 00:03:54,525 Uh, he pointed out that a lot of the, the most innovative and interesting 41 00:03:54,525 --> 00:03:58,065 thinkers were people who were outside of academia back at that time. 42 00:03:58,065 --> 00:04:03,945 People like, uh, Buckminster Fuller, Barbara Tuchman, uh, uh, Betty Friedan, 43 00:04:03,975 --> 00:04:10,210 Eric Hoffer, uh, people who made a real difference but we're not associated 44 00:04:10,210 --> 00:04:11,710 with the university in any way. 45 00:04:11,740 --> 00:04:15,970 Now, I went to the university because, uh, it was just kind of a path 46 00:04:15,970 --> 00:04:17,680 that I had been on for a long time. 47 00:04:18,130 --> 00:04:21,915 And I studied what I studied because I was interested in it, not because, um, 48 00:04:22,935 --> 00:04:25,725 I was intent on going out and getting rich or anything. 49 00:04:26,235 --> 00:04:31,005 But in order to do that, I had to get creative because we were just 50 00:04:31,005 --> 00:04:35,115 starting to get to the point where university life was getting expensive. 51 00:04:35,625 --> 00:04:39,375 It was getting harder and harder to get in and afford it. 52 00:04:40,005 --> 00:04:44,085 And at this, while I was doing my degree, my wife was also 53 00:04:44,085 --> 00:04:46,005 doing a doctorate at Stanford. 54 00:04:46,005 --> 00:04:51,625 So we had, we were basically putting two kids through college as a, as a young 55 00:04:51,625 --> 00:04:54,175 married couple, uh, namely each other. 56 00:04:54,805 --> 00:04:59,875 So it seemed to me that there was something to be said here. 57 00:04:59,875 --> 00:05:04,405 And as the years went by and I found myself doing all these strange and 58 00:05:04,405 --> 00:05:08,995 interesting things, it occurred to me that this might be something that 59 00:05:08,995 --> 00:05:16,104 someone else who didn't get a chance to go to university might find interesting 60 00:05:16,104 --> 00:05:18,865 as a way of enhancing their own life. 61 00:05:19,015 --> 00:05:19,224 Now, 62 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,640 it started out as a love song basically to a life of the mind. 63 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,620 But in the last few years, obviously things have changed. 64 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:35,520 We are now living in a time when higher education and even the very 65 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,250 idea of truth is under attack. 66 00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:46,740 And, um, it strikes me that one way to fight back against that is to create a 67 00:05:46,740 --> 00:05:55,515 society where, um, honest dialogue, and critical thinking, and a love of learning 68 00:05:55,545 --> 00:05:59,055 is respected, and cherished, and nurtured. 69 00:05:59,835 --> 00:06:05,055 And so it started out as a love song, but it's kind of turned into a manifesto. 70 00:06:05,925 --> 00:06:11,115 So while the book has a lot of tips about how you can do research when 71 00:06:11,115 --> 00:06:15,765 you don't have access to an university library or various disciplines that 72 00:06:15,765 --> 00:06:20,325 will make you a better thinker and a better scholar, there's also, for 73 00:06:20,325 --> 00:06:24,794 instance, a very extensive chapter on dealing with disinformation, 74 00:06:25,485 --> 00:06:31,305 and there's another chapter on, um, how do you conduct a learning 75 00:06:31,305 --> 00:06:33,885 community when you're in a situation 76 00:06:34,345 --> 00:06:40,304 where the powers that be are doing everything they can to quash that. 77 00:06:41,114 --> 00:06:48,705 So I take examples, for instance, from the, um, uh, the universities that, um, 78 00:06:49,094 --> 00:06:53,085 uh, allied prisoners of war put together behind the barbed wire during World 79 00:06:53,085 --> 00:07:00,854 War II, or the learning, um, societies and, uh, infrastructure that was put 80 00:07:00,854 --> 00:07:06,775 together by Welsh coal miners to educate their kids and then later themselves to 81 00:07:06,775 --> 00:07:09,295 help them get out of the coal fields. 82 00:07:09,895 --> 00:07:15,625 Uh, I talk about the, um, uh, the Antebellum African American literary 83 00:07:15,625 --> 00:07:22,215 societies where a lot of the basic ideas behind, um, uh, the abolitionist 84 00:07:22,215 --> 00:07:28,724 movement got thrashed out and some of, uh, the African American community's 85 00:07:29,235 --> 00:07:33,825 strongest voices received their initial training, learning to read 86 00:07:33,825 --> 00:07:35,805 and write, and how to argue a point. 87 00:07:36,615 --> 00:07:39,235 Uh, so all of these things kind of play into that. 88 00:07:39,895 --> 00:07:45,180 And, uh, but I also keep coming back to the idea that learning 89 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:47,850 is a pleasure, uh, you know? 90 00:07:47,850 --> 00:07:53,910 I, I, there's, there is no, there are a few, there are a few phrases that 91 00:07:53,910 --> 00:08:01,320 perplex me more than the phrase, "Makes Learning Fun." Uh, you know, you might as 92 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,659 well say makes breathing fun, you know? 93 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,940 Uh, our learning is what we do, it's, it's the human, uh, 94 00:08:08,969 --> 00:08:11,010 characteristic par excellence. 95 00:08:13,799 --> 00:08:14,849 Yeah, it, it is. 96 00:08:14,849 --> 00:08:23,789 It's part of our human nature, you know, we, we develop through learning so we 97 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,750 definitely need learning in our life. 98 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:37,289 Uh, I come from a background where books and learning, it, it was not the focal 99 00:08:37,289 --> 00:08:46,635 point of human nature and I, I really lack in many ways because of that. 100 00:08:47,085 --> 00:08:54,855 So I, I remember interviewing Dr. Danny Brassell and he, he is a 101 00:08:54,975 --> 00:09:02,475 great forerunner for kids actively participating in reading and learning. 102 00:09:02,925 --> 00:09:03,105 And 103 00:09:05,430 --> 00:09:11,010 he, he mentioned that having a lot of books in the home is a great 104 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:18,420 way to introduce that learning instead of a television or other 105 00:09:18,959 --> 00:09:22,230 interactive learning mechanisms. 106 00:09:23,085 --> 00:09:29,564 Books are a great way to develop the mind, and I really dove in and I 107 00:09:29,564 --> 00:09:32,175 wanted to understand more about that. 108 00:09:32,564 --> 00:09:41,400 And the more I thought about it, it, it's very true because when you learn to 109 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:49,890 read and read well, I, I don't mean just casually read, I'm talking about diving 110 00:09:49,890 --> 00:09:53,790 into what reading actually is, learning. 111 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,200 This, this helps us develop a lot 112 00:09:58,755 --> 00:09:59,324 better. 113 00:09:59,324 --> 00:10:03,765 Because if you're reading it makes your mind more active. 114 00:10:03,765 --> 00:10:09,795 You have to actively think, a red dragon, what does a red dragon look like? 115 00:10:09,885 --> 00:10:14,984 And you have to imagine this so it expands your mind a lot more. 116 00:10:17,175 --> 00:10:26,520 What, what is lacking in our world today is that physical reading, you know, books 117 00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:34,620 should be at a hand throw away and, you know, we, we, we lack the understanding 118 00:10:34,650 --> 00:10:40,260 of the importance of diving into a book. 119 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:48,570 And I did not do that until I was in my forties and getting close to my fifties. 120 00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:58,575 So now I am actively reading all the time and I'm learning that, hey, my mind is 121 00:10:58,575 --> 00:11:05,295 expanding better because I have to do those more intricate details of learning 122 00:11:05,535 --> 00:11:09,375 by imagining and growing with my learning. 123 00:11:09,885 --> 00:11:11,235 What's your thoughts on that? 124 00:11:13,635 --> 00:11:18,885 Well, you've, you have nailed a, a, an, an incredibly important point. 125 00:11:19,214 --> 00:11:25,364 When I was growing up, when we were growing up, um, my mother, uh, was 126 00:11:25,364 --> 00:11:30,795 very active, uh, with the, um, the local public library in Salem, Oregon. 127 00:11:31,245 --> 00:11:34,155 She was a member of The Friends of The, of The Public Library. 128 00:11:34,545 --> 00:11:42,015 And the public library, uh, was both a place for us to, um, to, uh, you 129 00:11:42,015 --> 00:11:46,275 know, go and amuse ourselves and I suppose it, at some level, it also, 130 00:11:46,755 --> 00:11:49,365 uh, pinch-hit for my mother as daycare. 131 00:11:49,365 --> 00:11:57,150 But, um, she was, she was very adamant about making sure that there were, that 132 00:11:57,150 --> 00:12:00,030 there were books all over the place. 133 00:12:00,030 --> 00:12:05,640 I mean, uh, we had lots of books at home, there was a book mobile that 134 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,570 showed up, uh, you know, a five minute bike ride away every Saturday. 135 00:12:10,395 --> 00:12:16,665 Uh, there were book sales where you could go and, you know, like every six months 136 00:12:16,665 --> 00:12:21,195 or so, the library would sell off, uh, books that they weren't using anymore. 137 00:12:21,525 --> 00:12:24,945 Hardbacks were a quarter and paperbacks were a dime. 138 00:12:25,485 --> 00:12:29,895 You know, I, I spent six bucks and got an entire encyclopedia set, you know? 139 00:12:30,525 --> 00:12:36,105 Um, you know, and, and that kind of, that stuck. 140 00:12:36,375 --> 00:12:41,625 And, um, so, you know, I mean, you can see behind me the whole 141 00:12:41,625 --> 00:12:43,275 house is like this, you know? 142 00:12:43,875 --> 00:12:47,625 Uh, and my wife is, is just as bad as I am. 143 00:12:47,715 --> 00:12:52,775 Um, we're not good for each other when it comes to, you know, us accumulating books. 144 00:12:53,805 --> 00:12:56,565 And it's not entirely true that I married her for her 145 00:12:56,565 --> 00:13:00,495 library, but, um, uh, you know? 146 00:13:00,825 --> 00:13:08,685 Um, the, um, uh, you know, the, um, the, the experience of a book with, 147 00:13:08,745 --> 00:13:13,395 with actual pages, it's not just that you're interacting with it the way 148 00:13:13,395 --> 00:13:19,605 you describe, the way you describe so well, there is now a solid body of 149 00:13:19,605 --> 00:13:25,245 evidence to show that when students learn to read from a screen versus 150 00:13:25,245 --> 00:13:27,825 learning to read from the printed page, 151 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:30,360 it's not as effective on a screen. 152 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,530 If you get to the end of like, say, sixth grade, the students who have 153 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:39,420 been, uh, reading off of a screen are on average about two thirds 154 00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:43,920 of a year behind the students who've been reading off dead trees. 155 00:13:45,315 --> 00:13:52,785 Uh, and I, I, you know, I can't really make any, um, uh, offer any explanation 156 00:13:52,785 --> 00:13:57,045 as to why that's true, apart from, you know, some kind of a lack of interaction. 157 00:13:57,045 --> 00:14:01,395 I don't have any kind of scientific or empirical, uh, explanation for that, 158 00:14:01,815 --> 00:14:03,645 but that does seem to be the case. 159 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,660 Uh, the other thing too is that I do like to, you know, to go through a 160 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:14,520 book and, you know, I will, I will mark things, you know, in like pencil or make 161 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,650 little notes in the margin, you know? 162 00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:21,420 Um, there's a wonderful old Jewish saying, um, A virgin book 163 00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:24,030 bears no offspring, you know? 164 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:25,770 Uh, you know? 165 00:14:25,770 --> 00:14:30,390 And, and I think, I think there's a certain amount of truth to that, you know? 166 00:14:30,690 --> 00:14:33,960 My, my book is the result of many, many other books with lots of 167 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,820 underlining and, and margin notes. 168 00:14:36,030 --> 00:14:40,470 So, um, you can't, you can't really do that on Kindle. 169 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:45,150 Uh, I mean, they say you can, but it's, it's not the same thing. 170 00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:53,970 Yeah, it, it's like an extra effort beyond and, and it breaks you from what 171 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:57,300 you're doing instead of that quick jot. 172 00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:05,190 Hand and, hand and eye go together well and when, when you break that, 173 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:10,580 it like takes you away and then you have to regain your consciousness. 174 00:15:10,915 --> 00:15:16,190 And, and there's a study about that also when you break away and you have to 175 00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:22,520 come back, it takes your mind a certain amount of time to refocus and regather. 176 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:32,390 So if you're doing that, you know, pen and eye to paper, you don't break away 177 00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:36,885 and you, you can actually focus better. 178 00:15:37,425 --> 00:15:44,925 So our learning standards have dropped in a way by going to these electronic 179 00:15:44,925 --> 00:15:52,635 devices and it's, it's really caused distractions in many ways. 180 00:15:53,805 --> 00:16:02,385 And I, I'm wondering, you know, it, it is a great augmentation of learning, but 181 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,099 should it be the forefront of learning? 182 00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:10,229 I don't think so, I don't think it should be at the forefront. 183 00:16:10,349 --> 00:16:16,620 It's a, it's a tool like any other tool, but you don't use a hammer for everything. 184 00:16:17,490 --> 00:16:24,780 Uh, the other problem that I find is that, um, uh, you know, every 185 00:16:24,780 --> 00:16:28,740 new piece of technology brings unintended consequences in its wake. 186 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:36,390 And one of the problems that I have found with, um, uh, this kind of technology, 187 00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:39,690 at least in the schools, for the last couple of years, I've been working as 188 00:16:39,690 --> 00:16:43,680 a substitute or an, uh, educational assistant in the local school district 189 00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:50,070 and there was this one, uh, class that I was helping out in, this, this, this 190 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:55,680 poor teacher was dealing with thirty-two kindergartners and they all had their 191 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,800 iBook, you know, their, their iPads, and 192 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,580 they were all trying to log into the system. 193 00:17:03,150 --> 00:17:10,379 Trying to get thirty-two kindergartners to all log in to a network in a timely 194 00:17:10,379 --> 00:17:14,935 manner, it's like asking a starfish to do brain surgery, you know? 195 00:17:15,325 --> 00:17:18,474 I mean, it took forty-five minutes to get everybody logged in. 196 00:17:18,474 --> 00:17:21,055 And by that time, you know, and this was pretty typical. 197 00:17:21,325 --> 00:17:22,675 I mean, that was on a good day. 198 00:17:23,365 --> 00:17:29,035 Uh, the, the, the technology frankly is buggy, it's not terribly, you 199 00:17:29,035 --> 00:17:30,685 know, it's not always reliable. 200 00:17:31,225 --> 00:17:38,095 And then once you get to it, you know, it's a, so much of what's, what 201 00:17:38,215 --> 00:17:42,715 is being done there just replicates what was done with a worksheet. 202 00:17:43,679 --> 00:17:48,240 Now in the, in the past, I, you know, I will say grading those 203 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,830 worksheets took a lot of time. 204 00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:53,250 The computer saves a lot of time for the teacher on, in that respect. 205 00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:57,389 But does it save as much time as it takes to get everybody logged 206 00:17:57,389 --> 00:18:00,210 in and, and, and doing their stuff? 207 00:18:00,570 --> 00:18:01,169 I don't know. 208 00:18:01,919 --> 00:18:09,389 On the other hand, I've seen fantastic use made of, um, uh, YouTube videos 209 00:18:09,985 --> 00:18:11,939 and, and you know, things of that sort. 210 00:18:12,435 --> 00:18:15,435 You know, uh, well, let's find something, boom, you know, and it, 211 00:18:15,435 --> 00:18:16,995 and it makes things a lot easier. 212 00:18:16,995 --> 00:18:20,745 And for certain kinds of teaching, uh, that's great. 213 00:18:20,774 --> 00:18:22,814 You know, I have, I have no problem with it. 214 00:18:23,564 --> 00:18:28,374 But, you know, uh, the other problem, of course, is during the pandemic when 215 00:18:28,374 --> 00:18:36,465 a lot of education was conducted over Zoom, and that proved to be problematic. 216 00:18:37,034 --> 00:18:42,195 Because not only was the, was the education not getting through as well, 217 00:18:42,794 --> 00:18:48,225 there was a lack of socialization among the students that is, is still being felt. 218 00:18:48,225 --> 00:18:53,084 The effects of that are still being felt even years later as those kids that 219 00:18:53,415 --> 00:18:58,455 were kind of, not quite socialized are still trying to get that act together as 220 00:18:58,455 --> 00:19:00,435 they, as they move through the system. 221 00:19:02,024 --> 00:19:07,050 So, you know, um, and now, of course, we have, you know, we have AI and Chat 222 00:19:07,050 --> 00:19:14,730 GPT and all that sort of thing, which is, um, giving kids an excuse to write 223 00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:16,200 something without thinking about it. 224 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:17,400 And that's deadly. 225 00:19:19,635 --> 00:19:20,415 Yes. 226 00:19:21,314 --> 00:19:21,915 Yes. 227 00:19:22,335 --> 00:19:24,554 Uh, that, you hit it right there. 228 00:19:24,585 --> 00:19:32,925 You know, and, and really AI is just pre-programmed information that these 229 00:19:32,925 --> 00:19:36,975 models have been programmed to output. 230 00:19:37,095 --> 00:19:46,439 So when we think about that, you have to really go through and edit this AI. 231 00:19:46,860 --> 00:19:51,689 You know, I, I use Descript for my transcript, for instance, and 232 00:19:53,760 --> 00:20:00,750 I, I would say that transcript is maybe eighty-nine to ninety percent accurate. 233 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:08,430 But you need that human oversight to go through and edit that and make sure that 234 00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:15,090 it's accurate to the hundred percent mark or else it, it's like you said, there's, 235 00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:20,190 and there's a lot of people just, oh, that's good enough, and they let it go. 236 00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:21,420 But 237 00:20:22,365 --> 00:20:28,875 like you said, it's an excuse to just get by and I, I think that is dangerous 238 00:20:28,875 --> 00:20:31,665 for our society in many, many ways. 239 00:20:32,505 --> 00:20:34,335 You brought up YouTube. 240 00:20:35,355 --> 00:20:41,625 YouTube is a fascinating visual, audible learning device for us, and 241 00:20:41,625 --> 00:20:49,979 it takes me back to, you know, when I was in school, those big reels would 242 00:20:49,979 --> 00:20:55,960 be pulled out and the projector set up and we would watch a show, you know? 243 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:02,820 So that, that was one of the best times of learning for me in the classroom because 244 00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:07,670 it, it was an image that I could get into. 245 00:21:07,970 --> 00:21:14,690 So there are these different forms of educating our brain and people 246 00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:18,380 take information in differently. 247 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:22,130 What, what is your thoughts and opinions on that? 248 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:26,550 Well, yeah, you're absolutely right. 249 00:21:26,649 --> 00:21:30,930 There're, there're people who learn visually, there're people who learn, uh, 250 00:21:31,010 --> 00:21:36,660 audibly, there're people who learn when they're doing something with their hands. 251 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:41,460 Uh, and this is one of the problems that public education has faced from 252 00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:47,820 the beginning is how do you educate a whole bunch of people, uh, to the point 253 00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:49,670 where they could become useful citizens? 254 00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:56,460 And our solution to that is to apply, uh, a mass production model where you 255 00:21:56,460 --> 00:22:00,480 have an assembly line and you get a, and the, and the problem is it's like, 256 00:22:00,990 --> 00:22:05,370 you know, it's, it's like you have raw material and it's all different 257 00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:08,640 and you can't always adjust for it. 258 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,570 And people kind of get squeezed into, the square peg gets 259 00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:14,140 squeezed into the round hole. 260 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:16,740 Sometimes you can make it work, sometimes you can't. 261 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,800 The other thing too is that it's a question of timing. 262 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:26,040 Some people aren't ready to handle Shakespeare in, you know, eighth or 263 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,700 ninth grade, but then maybe a few years later in their twenties or 264 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:33,929 something, they, they go to, uh, they go to a performance of Romeo and Juliet 265 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:36,450 and they go, wow, that's amazing. 266 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,550 I wanna learn more about this, you know? 267 00:22:39,149 --> 00:22:44,669 Uh, or, you know, uh, again, it's, it's a question of timing. 268 00:22:44,669 --> 00:22:50,024 Now in, in, um, in earlier times, let's, let's go back to the ancient 269 00:22:50,024 --> 00:22:54,135 Greeks, because that's kind of where our education system gets its start. 270 00:22:55,695 --> 00:22:58,604 There were, there were no grades, there was no graduation, 271 00:22:58,604 --> 00:22:59,415 there was nothing like that. 272 00:22:59,804 --> 00:23:05,024 Education was just kind of what you did, especially if you 273 00:23:05,024 --> 00:23:07,425 were, uh, a gentleman of means. 274 00:23:07,479 --> 00:23:13,425 In, in fact, our word school comes from a Greek word schole', which means leisure. 275 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,960 Because that was considered to be the appropriate activity of a gentleman 276 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,550 of leisure, and you educated yourself so that you could hold your own in 277 00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:28,470 freewheeling discussions about the big ideas with the smartest men in town. 278 00:23:29,610 --> 00:23:34,050 And freewheeling discussions about the big ideas between the smartest 279 00:23:34,050 --> 00:23:37,320 men in town was also a pretty good description of Greek democracy. 280 00:23:38,295 --> 00:23:46,665 So, you know, here we are, uh, we've got this, this need to, um, to have 281 00:23:47,085 --> 00:23:50,895 a citizenry that is, uh, educated. 282 00:23:51,765 --> 00:23:57,195 Uh, and especially now when that educational system is under attack. 283 00:23:57,225 --> 00:24:01,284 I mean, we, we have, um, I mean, okay, I'm rambling a little bit here, but 284 00:24:01,665 --> 00:24:10,080 it, I've, it is, it is a national disgrace, in my opinion, how, um, school 285 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,700 teachers are treated in this country. 286 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:15,120 You know, they're underpaid, they're overworked, and it has been 287 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,150 demonstrated on more than one occasion that they are literally willing 288 00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:19,800 to take a bullet for their kids. 289 00:24:21,005 --> 00:24:24,600 Uh, you know, but, you know, we're gonna blame everything on them anyway. 290 00:24:24,990 --> 00:24:34,544 Um, if, uh, if being able to deal with, with big ideas in open, uh, 291 00:24:34,574 --> 00:24:43,155 discussion is the basis for democracy in ancient Greece, what kind of 292 00:24:43,155 --> 00:24:47,804 government is our assembly line? 293 00:24:48,645 --> 00:24:54,554 Heavily, you know, edited and in many cases censored education. 294 00:24:54,764 --> 00:24:57,750 What is, what kind of government is that preparing us for? 295 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,250 That, that's unsettling to me. 296 00:25:05,909 --> 00:25:13,770 Well, you know, when we talk about our politics today, it's, it's so shattering. 297 00:25:14,189 --> 00:25:17,490 I mean, the polarization behind it. 298 00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:24,750 And you know, when, when we talk about politics, it has to be in a fashion 299 00:25:24,750 --> 00:25:31,905 and a form that is intellectual, it has to be solid and true to itself. 300 00:25:32,475 --> 00:25:37,004 And there's none of that in any of our politics today. 301 00:25:37,155 --> 00:25:40,395 It's, it's like you said, a disgrace. 302 00:25:40,935 --> 00:25:49,034 And really it's up to us, the people, to recognize that and change that. 303 00:25:49,455 --> 00:25:57,120 And that change comes through the voting box and that, that 304 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,060 gets pretty touchy nowadays. 305 00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:09,780 However, if, if there is no moral aspect to what we are doing with our political 306 00:26:09,780 --> 00:26:17,505 life and there's no accountability for our leadership for the spewing rhetoric 307 00:26:17,610 --> 00:26:20,250 that comes out of these people's mouths, 308 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,450 what are we as a society? 309 00:26:24,885 --> 00:26:33,465 You know, really Sheldon, we, we as Americans, yes, we're finding out. 310 00:26:33,915 --> 00:26:39,255 And we as Americans, the world looks upon us after World War 311 00:26:39,735 --> 00:26:49,305 II, like this leadership role was thrust upon us, and yet we have, 312 00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:59,280 we have destroyed the value in the trust of leadership. 313 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:06,570 And it's hard to trust leadership and authority and science anymore, 314 00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:16,770 and that degradation of our learning capabilities is extremely important 315 00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:17,520 right now. 316 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,295 We, we have to 317 00:27:22,665 --> 00:27:26,925 reassert to individuals, it's okay to be where you are. 318 00:27:27,735 --> 00:27:35,475 And like you just outlined, you know, it, it takes time to learn and 319 00:27:35,715 --> 00:27:38,745 learning comes when it's accepted. 320 00:27:39,375 --> 00:27:45,250 So yeah, our leadership and what we are thinking about 321 00:27:47,550 --> 00:27:55,350 is really off, in my opinion, and I think we need to bring it back to the teachers. 322 00:27:56,100 --> 00:28:05,010 The teachers should be our number one priority, second to possibly healthcare. 323 00:28:05,975 --> 00:28:13,680 And, and, and that's, that's more focused on the people and the value 324 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:19,995 of what they are, and who they are, what they can bring to our society. 325 00:28:21,345 --> 00:28:23,685 How do we fix this polarization? 326 00:28:26,955 --> 00:28:30,825 Well, you know, one, one of the, the really important ways I think 327 00:28:30,825 --> 00:28:34,145 to do that is, and you've, you've alluded to this a couple of times, 328 00:28:34,675 --> 00:28:42,465 is to reenthrone, uh, honest dialogue as, uh, a, a real activity. 329 00:28:42,855 --> 00:28:46,875 Now in the book, I have a couple of, I, I have an entire section that's devoted 330 00:28:46,875 --> 00:28:51,645 to different ways that you can bring people together to talk about things. 331 00:28:52,245 --> 00:28:57,765 Uh, like, you know, salons, or seminars, or teach-ins, you know, and I'm drawing 332 00:28:57,765 --> 00:28:59,595 on a lot of different traditions here. 333 00:29:00,165 --> 00:29:06,735 Um, but there are also some ways that we can set rules 334 00:29:06,915 --> 00:29:08,715 for how we talk about things. 335 00:29:08,715 --> 00:29:12,524 Now, um, let's see, are you familiar with the Long Now Foundation? 336 00:29:13,395 --> 00:29:13,754 Okay. 337 00:29:13,754 --> 00:29:17,745 There, there're a, there're a bunch of, uh, relatively harmless Silicon 338 00:29:17,745 --> 00:29:25,919 Valley bros who are very interested in thinking about the future of humanity in 339 00:29:25,919 --> 00:29:31,560 terms, in very, very long terms, like, you know, for the next 10,000 years. 340 00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:36,419 And so they have these, they have these various projects, uh, some of 341 00:29:36,419 --> 00:29:40,139 them are a little silly, some of them are rather profound, but they have 342 00:29:40,139 --> 00:29:45,690 developed this very interesting debate format that they use when they have, 343 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,280 uh, public debates on some of these big topics that they're dealing with. 344 00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:51,990 So here's how it works. 345 00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:54,630 Let's say you have two debaters, Alice and Bob. 346 00:29:55,500 --> 00:30:02,880 Alice starts out, she sets out her position and her argument, 347 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,950 and then it goes over to Bob. 348 00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:14,565 But Bob cannot present his, uh, argument until he has articulated Alice's 349 00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:17,235 argument to Alice's satisfaction. 350 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,070 When Alice is, is convinced that Bob knows, you know, and is not distorting 351 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:26,100 anything, then Bob can make his argument. 352 00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:28,020 And then the same thing happens there. 353 00:30:28,020 --> 00:30:35,430 Then Alice has to re, you know, and what you find is in some cases, um, 354 00:30:36,495 --> 00:30:41,070 in, in, in a few really odd cases, you find out that both, both debaters are 355 00:30:41,070 --> 00:30:42,810 actually talking about the same thing. 356 00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:46,040 They're just talking about it in different ways, you know? 357 00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:53,600 Um, another example is if you have two debate, uh, debating sides, um, but you 358 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:59,300 have a little committee of, I don't know, maybe three or four or five people in the 359 00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:04,670 middle, ordinary lay people who have read up on the subject and they are referees. 360 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,860 And if one side, uh, starts using some kind of jargon, they say, wait a minute. 361 00:31:10,455 --> 00:31:12,825 You used a term there, you need to explain what that means. 362 00:31:12,825 --> 00:31:15,195 I don't know what that word means, you know? 363 00:31:15,465 --> 00:31:19,335 Or if they're, if they're pulling something funny, they call them on it. 364 00:31:19,665 --> 00:31:25,095 And the referees kind of have, you know, the, the, the power to do that. 365 00:31:25,725 --> 00:31:31,635 Uh, yet another, um, another technique that sometimes turned up in some 366 00:31:31,635 --> 00:31:37,544 of the, um, uh, the salons in, uh, 18th and 19th century, uh, Paris, 367 00:31:38,054 --> 00:31:45,885 was that the salonniere would, um, uh, suddenly call for each side to, 368 00:31:46,425 --> 00:31:54,024 um, to argue the case, to, to switch sides so that A had to argue on B's 369 00:31:54,024 --> 00:31:55,937 behalf and B had to on A's behalf. 370 00:31:55,937 --> 00:31:56,654 And this is 371 00:31:56,654 --> 00:31:59,444 actually, uh, a technique that's often used in the intelligence 372 00:31:59,444 --> 00:32:03,524 community when you have two groups that are trying to figure something 373 00:32:03,524 --> 00:32:07,574 out, and they'll, they'll switch and each one will argue the other side. 374 00:32:07,604 --> 00:32:11,414 And very often something very fruitful comes out of it. 375 00:32:11,414 --> 00:32:17,084 And it's a good way to avoid, um, your own biases getting injected into something. 376 00:32:17,084 --> 00:32:23,475 But, but all of these things, um, they, uh, they avoid misunderstanding. 377 00:32:23,475 --> 00:32:28,649 But what's more important, they also cultivate a kind of enforced empathy where 378 00:32:28,649 --> 00:32:32,789 you really do have to see what the other person is thinking and, and, and seeing. 379 00:32:32,794 --> 00:32:39,629 And, and quite honestly, if you are engaged in a debate, the best way 380 00:32:39,629 --> 00:32:43,799 to win that debate is to know the other guy's argument better than they 381 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:49,499 do, uh, because then your argument is gonna be much, much stronger. 382 00:32:49,709 --> 00:32:50,399 But, you know? 383 00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:54,239 So, so there, there are ways around this. 384 00:32:57,914 --> 00:33:00,089 Yeah, that's very true. 385 00:33:02,129 --> 00:33:02,369 Yep. 386 00:33:03,329 --> 00:33:08,309 Uh, another organization similar to what you described is Braver 387 00:33:08,309 --> 00:33:12,659 Angels, and they bring both sides in. 388 00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:22,049 And, you know, it's, it's a unique debating, uh, form and, and I highly 389 00:33:22,169 --> 00:33:27,449 suggest you look those people up and it, it's unique, Braver Angels. 390 00:33:28,889 --> 00:33:36,330 So, yes, I, I believe they're based out of Canada, uh, if I remember right. 391 00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:38,580 It's, it's been a little while. 392 00:33:40,290 --> 00:33:50,159 So, you know, we, we have a lot of these nuances coming at us, 393 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:52,949 and podcasting is one of them. 394 00:33:52,949 --> 00:33:59,804 It's like one of these areas that people are kind of congregating 395 00:33:59,804 --> 00:34:02,384 to for these discussions. 396 00:34:02,774 --> 00:34:09,705 And I'm finding that more of the medium to long form discussions are now 397 00:34:10,529 --> 00:34:17,969 being popularized and being presented to people and it's more acceptable. 398 00:34:17,969 --> 00:34:23,429 And I feel that this is a great way to entice learning in our 399 00:34:23,429 --> 00:34:31,710 communities, to bring more of this free nature podcasting to our society. 400 00:34:31,979 --> 00:34:32,784 What do you think of that? 401 00:34:35,114 --> 00:34:39,015 Oh, I think it's a wonderful development and I think it reflects the fact 402 00:34:39,015 --> 00:34:45,345 that people are hungry for quality content, uh, for um, for meaningful 403 00:34:45,345 --> 00:34:50,415 discussion, and something that isn't just, uh, you know, somebody up 404 00:34:50,415 --> 00:34:55,199 there staring wild-eyed and spittle flecked and yelling into a microphone. 405 00:34:55,739 --> 00:35:00,359 Uh, that gets old after a while, it's exhausting. 406 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,950 Uh, and in some cases I think that's the point. 407 00:35:05,429 --> 00:35:08,969 But, um, yeah, I, I'm delighted to see it. 408 00:35:08,969 --> 00:35:14,460 And I'm also, uh, you know, very pleased to see, uh, that. 409 00:35:14,939 --> 00:35:18,839 I, I, frankly, when I started looking for, you know, at podcasts where I 410 00:35:18,839 --> 00:35:24,839 could, uh, promote the book, I was astonished at the range of and number 411 00:35:24,839 --> 00:35:26,609 of podcasts that are out there. 412 00:35:27,059 --> 00:35:30,479 And I just think, Wow, that is, that is great. 413 00:35:30,540 --> 00:35:33,450 We need that, we need that desperately. 414 00:35:33,839 --> 00:35:37,109 So, you know, kudos, keep it going. 415 00:35:37,259 --> 00:35:38,669 Let's, let's continue. 416 00:35:39,540 --> 00:35:44,814 We may not have Public Broadcasting for, uh, for that much longer. 417 00:35:44,904 --> 00:35:50,875 But it's not like we don't have the public who is broadcasting or podcasting. 418 00:35:51,115 --> 00:35:54,564 So public broadcasting gives way to public podcasting. 419 00:35:55,854 --> 00:35:56,274 Yes. 420 00:35:56,394 --> 00:35:56,875 Yes. 421 00:35:56,934 --> 00:36:00,234 I, I think that that's a great point you bring up. 422 00:36:00,234 --> 00:36:06,540 You know, our current administration, and we're recording this, what, in 423 00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:14,460 August of 2025, so it's Donald Trump in this administration doing some pretty 424 00:36:14,460 --> 00:36:17,700 horrific things to Public Broadcasting. 425 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:26,434 I, I was raised watching Public Broadcasting and it, it is, it has always 426 00:36:26,580 --> 00:36:35,040 been a place where you could present ideas to the public in a public form. 427 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:44,009 And you, you get more unbiased approach to news with Public Broadcasting. 428 00:36:44,279 --> 00:36:52,050 And yet we're seeing this diminishing effect on all of these 429 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:58,290 things that matter to our society through our current administration. 430 00:36:59,279 --> 00:37:05,250 And it, it seems like nobody's speaking up about a lot of it 431 00:37:05,819 --> 00:37:12,750 because they're terrified of the consequence, maybe, I, I don't know. 432 00:37:13,410 --> 00:37:18,450 And I, I think that's very disturbing that we're finding ourselves in 433 00:37:18,450 --> 00:37:24,210 a position where Americans are terrified to step up and say, 434 00:37:24,210 --> 00:37:26,069 Hey, you're doing the wrong thing. 435 00:37:26,580 --> 00:37:35,295 Your, your thoughts are diminishing what American values have always 436 00:37:35,295 --> 00:37:43,635 bolstered, you know, freedom, respect, uh, common dignity to your fellow man. 437 00:37:43,725 --> 00:37:44,475 And 438 00:37:46,515 --> 00:37:54,510 where, where do you see our, our lives going if we take away these 439 00:37:54,510 --> 00:37:59,880 aspects of learning through such means as Public Broadcasting? 440 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:06,330 Well, it's not just that we're going to lose Public Broadcasting, that's going 441 00:38:06,330 --> 00:38:11,399 to be replaced by broadcasting that is not in the interest of the public. 442 00:38:11,970 --> 00:38:17,970 I mean, we already see, you know, um, right wing media and, uh, 443 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:23,760 and various conspiracy theory oriented, uh, organs out there. 444 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:33,090 And what you're going to get is, um, uh, a crueler society, a more cynical society. 445 00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:39,974 Uh, you're gonna find people who are less, um, willing to, uh, look out for 446 00:38:39,974 --> 00:38:42,045 other people, look out for each other. 447 00:38:42,825 --> 00:38:46,785 Uh, there will still be people who are willing to do that, brave souls who 448 00:38:46,785 --> 00:38:50,714 are, who are willing to push against that, but there's going to be a cost. 449 00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:57,660 Uh, and I think a lot of the rhetoric that we're seeing that decries, 450 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:03,389 uh, or denigrates things like, like learning, like, uh, social justice 451 00:39:03,389 --> 00:39:08,910 and things like that, it's intended to raise the social and political 452 00:39:08,910 --> 00:39:11,130 cost of exercising your conscience. 453 00:39:12,179 --> 00:39:18,045 Uh, that, you know, there are other regimes out there who have 454 00:39:18,045 --> 00:39:22,665 done that sort of thing, uh, and it's, it's a very old story. 455 00:39:23,055 --> 00:39:29,335 My hope, however, is that there is always a resistance. 456 00:39:30,435 --> 00:39:35,849 And sometimes it takes decades to find its way, uh, find its way out. 457 00:39:36,479 --> 00:39:42,059 Uh, I'm thinking for instance, um, late 19th century Poland, 458 00:39:42,179 --> 00:39:46,080 uh, was under Prussian rule at this, at that particular moment. 459 00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:52,710 And, uh, the government closed the universities to anyone who wasn't male 460 00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:54,420 and a friend of the, of the government. 461 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:02,370 And so the people of Poland, the, uh, the disenfranchised, uh, university people, 462 00:40:02,670 --> 00:40:05,010 they set up their own secret universities. 463 00:40:05,010 --> 00:40:08,309 They were called Flying Universities because they had to keep moving around 464 00:40:08,309 --> 00:40:16,484 to, uh, stay ahead of the authorities and, um, they proved to be very effective. 465 00:40:16,484 --> 00:40:20,925 In fact, one of the, uh, one of their innovations was that they admitted women. 466 00:40:20,955 --> 00:40:22,305 Oh, you know, heavens. 467 00:40:22,694 --> 00:40:28,035 And one of the women who, uh, was, who received her undergraduate education 468 00:40:28,035 --> 00:40:32,085 at one of these Flying Universities, uh, grew up to be Marie Curie. 469 00:40:33,615 --> 00:40:37,755 Uh, you know, and there was a, this, this came back, uh, the Flying 470 00:40:37,755 --> 00:40:41,745 Universities came back to Poland during the, uh, communist years. 471 00:40:42,375 --> 00:40:49,335 And one of the, uh, people who received his education, uh, in this 472 00:40:49,335 --> 00:40:54,585 secret underground university, uh, we know him as, as Pope John Paul II. 473 00:40:55,425 --> 00:41:04,035 So it's possible to have really first rate minds come out of these bad 474 00:41:04,035 --> 00:41:09,255 circumstances, but we have to be willing to take risks and we have to be willing 475 00:41:09,255 --> 00:41:17,054 to, um, equip ourselves with the kinds of tools that I have tried to lay out, 476 00:41:17,325 --> 00:41:25,200 uh, in, in this book, uh, about not just, uh, not just thinking and reading 477 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,120 and researching, but organizing and learning to talk to each other, uh, 478 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,769 even if we have to do it in a whisper. 479 00:41:32,849 --> 00:41:35,160 And that's not the American way. 480 00:41:35,279 --> 00:41:40,620 Uh, you know, it, it, and, and it's hard for people to understand that 481 00:41:40,620 --> 00:41:43,349 because we've lived under these 482 00:41:46,965 --> 00:41:53,984 immoral ways for a long time and, you know, I've, I've watched 483 00:41:53,984 --> 00:42:02,625 it creep in and people, they, they need to educate themselves 484 00:42:02,625 --> 00:42:04,965 because I, I think that's the key. 485 00:42:04,965 --> 00:42:15,000 If we let them dumb society down through things like the iPhone and the easy way, 486 00:42:15,479 --> 00:42:22,800 like we talked about earlier, if, if we rely on Google to do everything and 487 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:30,120 think everything through for us, we're subject to some harsh treatment later. 488 00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:36,000 Because you can't feed yourself, you can't fish, you can't hunt, you know, 489 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:42,450 you, so it's vital to understand how to take care of yourself because no 490 00:42:42,450 --> 00:42:46,830 one is responsible for you except you. 491 00:42:47,490 --> 00:42:52,210 And I think that's critical in these days to understand. 492 00:42:52,990 --> 00:42:59,205 And, and through my research, I found out that your book offers 493 00:42:59,384 --> 00:43:07,995 information on how to find resources and sources of information that 494 00:43:08,505 --> 00:43:11,115 is true and accurate and correct. 495 00:43:11,174 --> 00:43:13,484 Could you talk to us about that section? 496 00:43:14,745 --> 00:43:15,464 Sure. 497 00:43:15,464 --> 00:43:17,264 Um, uh, 498 00:43:20,205 --> 00:43:23,684 the problem is that, uh, everybody lives in a bubble. 499 00:43:24,599 --> 00:43:28,469 Uh, it's sort of in the same way that everybody is on a diet, 500 00:43:28,529 --> 00:43:31,740 it's just that some diets are deliberate and some diets are not. 501 00:43:32,399 --> 00:43:37,349 And so how you curate your bubble is, is very important. 502 00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:43,439 So I, uh, as I mentioned earlier on in the broadcast, I spent some time, um, uh, 503 00:43:43,710 --> 00:43:45,899 with the, with the intelligence community. 504 00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:51,630 And one of the things I learned was that as an intelligence analyst, what 505 00:43:51,630 --> 00:43:56,785 differentiates you from a run of the mill scholar is that the intelligence analyst 506 00:43:56,785 --> 00:44:02,514 has to always be aware of the possibility that someone is trying to spoof them. 507 00:44:03,054 --> 00:44:04,854 Someone is trying to deceive them. 508 00:44:05,399 --> 00:44:07,680 Well, we're all an intelligence analysts now. 509 00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:12,479 So, um, what you have to do is you have to be very deliberate 510 00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:14,430 about what your sources are. 511 00:44:14,970 --> 00:44:21,630 You have to, you know, if, if you have a source that, um, you know, tells you, uh, 512 00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:27,149 that something is one way consistently, and it obviously turns out not to be the 513 00:44:27,149 --> 00:44:32,889 case and they don't correct themselves, then you kind of have to just, I don't, 514 00:44:33,069 --> 00:44:35,200 I don't accept that from them anymore. 515 00:44:35,709 --> 00:44:40,779 Uh, there are some sources that are good on some things, bad on others. 516 00:44:41,139 --> 00:44:45,009 The Wall Street Journal is pretty good on business stuff, but their 517 00:44:45,009 --> 00:44:47,500 editorial page is full of cranks. 518 00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:50,049 So I don't pay attention to the editorial page. 519 00:44:50,620 --> 00:44:54,700 Um, you know, you just, that's, that's part of it. 520 00:44:54,729 --> 00:45:00,629 You just have to, you have to be kind of strict about who you listen to. 521 00:45:00,689 --> 00:45:03,750 And if they don't measure up, you stop listening to them. 522 00:45:04,349 --> 00:45:05,339 Now, that's one side. 523 00:45:05,939 --> 00:45:11,925 Another side is that there are people out there who do know stuff that 524 00:45:11,955 --> 00:45:16,545 don't really have a vested interest in pushing one agenda or another. 525 00:45:17,115 --> 00:45:21,825 And interestingly, uh, at least for the moment, uh, one of the best 526 00:45:21,825 --> 00:45:23,654 sources of that is the US government. 527 00:45:24,344 --> 00:45:30,974 So by law, every, um, every congressional district has to have at least one 528 00:45:31,335 --> 00:45:35,894 government documents repository that is stocked with stuff that comes 529 00:45:35,894 --> 00:45:39,104 from the government printing office or the superintendent of documents. 530 00:45:39,585 --> 00:45:47,024 And one of the things that you can access there is a guidebook to, uh, that, that is 531 00:45:47,024 --> 00:45:49,694 basically a catalog of government experts. 532 00:45:50,354 --> 00:45:57,929 So if you want to find an expert on, uh, I don't know, uh, Salmon 533 00:45:57,929 --> 00:46:01,679 populations, up here in the Pacific Northwest, that's a big thing. 534 00:46:02,370 --> 00:46:08,819 You can contact the, um, government documents repository or go there and 535 00:46:08,819 --> 00:46:12,660 one of the people there can point you in the direction of some person, 536 00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:17,009 give you a name and an email address or phone number of two or three 537 00:46:17,009 --> 00:46:21,090 people at Fish and Wildlife who are experts in that and can, can help you. 538 00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:28,470 Uh, and there are, there are of course other, uh, services like that that serve 539 00:46:28,529 --> 00:46:30,330 like journalists and that sort of thing. 540 00:46:30,540 --> 00:46:31,620 But this one is free. 541 00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,470 Well, for the moment anyway, who knows? 542 00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:36,240 They may try to privatize that. 543 00:46:36,660 --> 00:46:37,889 So that's one example. 544 00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:45,240 Um, another example is, uh, making better use of your public library. 545 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,804 Uh, the thing is there is so much more in a public library 546 00:46:50,804 --> 00:46:52,335 than just what's on the shelves. 547 00:46:52,995 --> 00:46:57,554 Uh, get to be good friends, get to be on a first name basis with the 548 00:46:57,554 --> 00:47:02,085 reference librarian, they are wizards. 549 00:47:03,194 --> 00:47:07,544 They can find stuff that you had no idea was even out there. 550 00:47:08,325 --> 00:47:12,464 Uh, and, and that's another thing too, is that Google doesn't have everything. 551 00:47:13,469 --> 00:47:19,139 Maybe, uh, I don't know what, between five, maybe optimistically 552 00:47:19,139 --> 00:47:25,529 nine percent of the web is actually indexed by Google, uh, the rest isn't. 553 00:47:26,069 --> 00:47:32,130 And there's also huge bodies of knowledge and, and information out there that is 554 00:47:33,029 --> 00:47:39,599 never going to get it, is never gonna get on the web because of copyright rules or 555 00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:41,939 other, um, intellectual property laws. 556 00:47:42,870 --> 00:47:45,990 There's no way they're gonna let that on the web because then, you 557 00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:47,130 know, they'll lose control of it. 558 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:52,319 But the librarians, they can, they can figure out how to get that stuff. 559 00:47:53,189 --> 00:48:01,019 Now another problem is that, um, academic journals are almost impossible 560 00:48:01,019 --> 00:48:04,769 to access for ordinary people because they're sitting behind these 561 00:48:04,890 --> 00:48:09,240 ridiculous paywalls where it costs, it costs you, you know, forty bucks 562 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:11,819 to download a PDF of a ten page paper. 563 00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:20,279 Uh, but there are now networks out there where you can look for these things. 564 00:48:20,700 --> 00:48:26,910 Uh, you know, like there's a, um, there's a trick you can use on, uh, on Twitter, 565 00:48:26,910 --> 00:48:30,899 X, whatever the hell they're calling it now, uh, I think it's the hashtag 566 00:48:30,899 --> 00:48:35,429 ICANHASPAPER or something like that, it's, it's in the book, where you put 567 00:48:35,429 --> 00:48:39,359 that out there with a, the title and the author of a paper that you're looking 568 00:48:39,359 --> 00:48:44,189 for and if someone, and you know, someone can see that and say, Oh, I've got a 569 00:48:44,189 --> 00:48:45,990 copy of that, here, I'll send it to you. 570 00:48:46,859 --> 00:48:53,594 Uh, there are also, uh, a lot of, um, frankly, pirate sites where they 571 00:48:53,594 --> 00:48:59,325 have millions, literally millions of academic, uh, papers and research and 572 00:48:59,325 --> 00:49:04,394 even entire books that would normally be behind payables, but they're out 573 00:49:04,394 --> 00:49:05,924 there and you can get them at, okay, 574 00:49:05,924 --> 00:49:06,224 Yeah. 575 00:49:06,285 --> 00:49:07,094 Downloading it. 576 00:49:07,754 --> 00:49:11,615 Uh, technically that's illegal, but so is jaywalking, you know? 577 00:49:11,665 --> 00:49:14,904 I mean, that's, that's kind of my, my attitude towards, 578 00:49:14,965 --> 00:49:16,225 towards these sorts of things. 579 00:49:16,644 --> 00:49:21,505 So there's, there's a whole, there's a whole lot of different ways that 580 00:49:21,505 --> 00:49:24,475 you can access, uh, information. 581 00:49:24,865 --> 00:49:32,365 Uh, and, uh, quite honestly, um, the more, the more laterally you think, 582 00:49:32,365 --> 00:49:37,064 what you'll often end up finding, the real payoff is when you find 583 00:49:37,064 --> 00:49:38,774 something that no one else knows about. 584 00:49:39,014 --> 00:49:40,724 I mean, no one else knows about. 585 00:49:41,505 --> 00:49:45,404 And, um, that's, that's when it really gets fun. 586 00:49:46,035 --> 00:49:51,764 So, uh, there are a lot of opportunities I think out there for independent 587 00:49:51,764 --> 00:49:55,814 scholars, for gorilla scholars that aren't working under the, the 588 00:49:55,814 --> 00:50:01,335 kinds of funding and disciplinary constraints that academics have. 589 00:50:01,965 --> 00:50:07,814 Uh, and they also aren't working under the same, um, constraints of 590 00:50:07,814 --> 00:50:09,255 where they get their information. 591 00:50:09,885 --> 00:50:15,240 Uh, there's a whole area of inquiry out there that's just waiting to be tapped. 592 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:20,880 And I think that, um, uh, gorilla scholarship is a way 593 00:50:21,060 --> 00:50:23,130 to get out there and do that. 594 00:50:23,130 --> 00:50:28,290 And in those, at, at the same time, improve the quality of our 595 00:50:28,290 --> 00:50:30,269 discourse and our political thinking. 596 00:50:34,769 --> 00:50:35,040 Yeah. 597 00:50:35,684 --> 00:50:36,795 Yeah, I like that a lot. 598 00:50:37,215 --> 00:50:43,015 You know, in essence, we all should be polymathic and we should be autodidact, 599 00:50:43,575 --> 00:50:47,894 and that's when the true learning begins. 600 00:50:48,314 --> 00:50:53,234 And, you know, that, that's when you can talk about the love of learning. 601 00:50:53,865 --> 00:51:00,104 You know, forced learning through the institutional values, I'm, I'm not 602 00:51:00,104 --> 00:51:10,439 convinced that that is really the way to have our communal dialogues per se. 603 00:51:10,769 --> 00:51:16,710 And this new frontier, if you will, is allowing people to discover 604 00:51:16,979 --> 00:51:19,109 that they do have things to offer. 605 00:51:20,129 --> 00:51:24,404 So, you know, it, it's been fascinating speaking with you 606 00:51:24,404 --> 00:51:28,290 today, it just got started it seems. 607 00:51:28,889 --> 00:51:34,229 I could speak for hours with you because you are a wealth of knowledge. 608 00:51:35,194 --> 00:51:40,294 Could you tell people how they can get ahold of you, get in touch with you, 609 00:51:40,294 --> 00:51:41,884 get involved with what you're doing? 610 00:51:44,794 --> 00:51:45,334 Sure. 611 00:51:45,394 --> 00:51:47,014 Um, well, let's see. 612 00:51:47,044 --> 00:51:50,615 Uh, you can, you can find my book on Amazon. 613 00:51:51,660 --> 00:51:58,649 Uh, it's available in hardback, soft cover, uh, uh, electronic copy and, 614 00:51:59,189 --> 00:52:01,439 uh, it's published through spines.com. 615 00:52:01,439 --> 00:52:04,680 And if you go through them, you can access various platforms that have the audiobook. 616 00:52:05,684 --> 00:52:06,585 So there's that. 617 00:52:07,215 --> 00:52:14,894 Uh, probably the best way to get a hold of me is to, um, email me at, 618 00:52:15,104 --> 00:52:20,715 uh, sheldon@gorrillascholar.com and that's with two R's and two L's. 619 00:52:21,314 --> 00:52:26,375 Um, uh, just look at the title of the book, because gorilla can 620 00:52:26,375 --> 00:52:30,904 be spelled with one r or two, either one is, is apparently okay. 621 00:52:31,444 --> 00:52:33,335 But I use two R's and two L's. 622 00:52:33,844 --> 00:52:41,434 Uh, so sheldon@gorrillascholar.com and, um, uh, yeah, that's, uh, you know, I'd 623 00:52:41,434 --> 00:52:45,665 love to hear from, from some of your listeners and, uh, you know, I'd love to, 624 00:52:45,665 --> 00:52:49,790 I'd love to continue this discussion if, uh, if the opportunity presents itself. 625 00:52:52,340 --> 00:52:57,134 Yeah, there, there's definitely more dialogue that needs to happen between 626 00:52:57,134 --> 00:53:03,404 us, uh, because we, we didn't even scratch the surface on, you know, 627 00:53:03,705 --> 00:53:10,174 your, your knowledge about biblical understanding and the Hebrew Bible, the, 628 00:53:10,664 --> 00:53:14,115 you know, this is fascinating to me. 629 00:53:14,444 --> 00:53:21,135 And I think the number one thing, politics and religion in our life. 630 00:53:21,734 --> 00:53:29,265 And everybody's afraid to be honest, true, and be curious. 631 00:53:29,475 --> 00:53:34,995 And, and I think if we formulate that curiosity instead of, 632 00:53:35,115 --> 00:53:36,675 Hey, I have to be right. 633 00:53:37,769 --> 00:53:40,589 We're gonna have a great, bright future. 634 00:53:41,099 --> 00:53:47,129 Is there anything else, Dr. Greaves, that you wanna share with our listeners that 635 00:53:47,129 --> 00:53:49,889 we haven't covered about learning today? 636 00:53:51,509 --> 00:53:57,629 Uh, I guess the only thing that I would, I would do, uh, that I would want to 637 00:53:57,629 --> 00:54:06,299 add is just to, to reiterate, uh, that learning is, is, is a source of joy. 638 00:54:06,509 --> 00:54:12,330 Um, there's, um, one of my favorite novels growing up was, uh, T.H. 639 00:54:12,330 --> 00:54:13,920 White's, the Once and Future King. 640 00:54:14,670 --> 00:54:19,319 And there's this wonderful quote that, um, comes out of it. 641 00:54:19,319 --> 00:54:23,759 Merlin is talking to, to, uh, Arthur, who's having a bad day. 642 00:54:24,359 --> 00:54:31,649 And, uh, Merlin, uh, says, The best thing for being sad is to learn something, 643 00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:34,740 that is the only thing that never fails. 644 00:54:35,130 --> 00:54:39,510 You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night 645 00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:44,099 listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only love, you may 646 00:54:44,099 --> 00:54:49,080 see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics or know your honor 647 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,109 trampled in the sewers of baser mines. 648 00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:55,649 There is only one thing for it then, to learn. 649 00:54:56,279 --> 00:54:58,990 Learn why the world wags and what wags it. 650 00:54:59,774 --> 00:55:04,575 That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, 651 00:55:05,115 --> 00:55:10,925 never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting. 652 00:55:11,974 --> 00:55:16,005 That is an awesome way to end a podcast right there. 653 00:55:16,514 --> 00:55:21,495 Dr. Sheldon Greaves, I, I thank you for sharing with us today, and 654 00:55:21,795 --> 00:55:23,774 you have a wealth of knowledge. 655 00:55:24,134 --> 00:55:25,335 Thank you for being out there. 656 00:55:26,085 --> 00:55:28,304 Thank you, it's my pleasure. 657 00:55:28,304 --> 00:55:28,904 Thank you. 658 00:55:45,835 --> 00:55:51,729 Chasing dreams in the neon glow, ancient pages turned, but the rebels know. 659 00:55:51,779 --> 00:55:57,279 Dusty roads hum a restless tune, under the harvest of a broken 660 00:55:59,569 --> 00:56:00,020 moon. 661 00:56:01,170 --> 00:56:10,740 Only ivory cracks when the wild ones speak, gorilla lies where the back 662 00:56:13,020 --> 00:56:15,149 streets meet. 663 00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:17,700 From Sheldon's 664 00:56:20,180 --> 00:56:22,600 trail to the county fair, knowledge blooms where the brave ones dare. 665 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:28,740 Blackboard rivers and chalk dust skies, every whisper wears a disguise. 666 00:56:28,740 --> 00:56:32,910 But the harmonic calls through the hollering pine, breaking 667 00:56:32,910 --> 00:56:34,520 chains with a voice divine. 668 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:41,150 Schoolhouse starts swinging wide tonight, lanterns burn with stolen light. 669 00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:50,350 The clear ones rise with the sun so clear, tearing down what the old world fears. 670 00:56:50,820 --> 00:56:58,120 Only ivory cracks when the wild ones speak, gorilla lies where 671 00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:05,720 the back streets meet. 672 00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:13,080 From 673 00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:24,220 Sheldon's trail to 674 00:57:28,830 --> 00:57:34,520 the county fair, knowledge blooms where the brave ones dare.